This was the Staten Island Rapid Transit electrified railroad.
For those who don’t know or care to know - I still will tell you that Staten Island is one of the five boroughs of New York City. For some reason, I still remember it being about 15 miles in length and about 7.5 miles wide - kind of shaped like South America.
Anyway, when I was a kid, that system used to connect the key towns on the island - mine was Port Richmond. These 3rd rail runners looked pretty much like subway cars - but everything ran at ground level.
I can remember my Grandpa taking me on trips to St. George, where the main terminal was located inside the Staten Island Ferry terminal. From there you could take the train to South Beach - which once upon a time was a great place to swim and enjoy the sights - even had a boardwalk and amusement park. There was also a line to Tottenville - the southermost town in the State of New York.
Everything I’m telling you took place in the 1940’s to early 50’s. As happened in so many other places, the lines began to dismantle. I believe the only one remaining is the longest leg - St. George to Tottenville. But - I really don’t have first hand knowledge - haven’t lived in that part of the world since the early 60’s.
SIRT was a subsidary of the B&O and was the outgrowth of the B&O’s attempt to tap the New York freight market. The SIRT was steam operated until New York passed thier laws eliminating the operation of steam engines in the city in the 20’s. The cars used on the SIRT were designed to be compatable with one of the New York subway lines in antacipation (never realized) that the SIRT would be joined to the subway line. The SIRT also operated the Authur Kill lift bridge, which at the time of it’s construction was considered to be the the largest of it’s kind ever constructed. In the 1980’s the SIRT was deeded over and incorated into one of the transportation agencies in the greater New York area. The operating management of the SIRT were offered continued employment with B&O within the structure of the Chessie System, most accepted.
There was a book, “Staten Island Rapid Transit, 1860-1965,” by Silver Leaf Rapid Transit (nearly impossible to find today) that has since been excerpted on the net. Silver Leaf has provided, through the Third Rail Online, some great stuff about the S.I.R.T. and of course, pictures! Irvin Leigh & Paul Matus’s Staen Island Rpaid Transit, The Essential History is available through www.rapidtransit.net. Check it out and go for “thirdrail” and you will ultimately find it. Also, www.forgotten-ny.com has some additional info. Click on “subways,” then “SIRT,” and you wll find even more!
Well, so far, that’s three of us who remember!
Hey Dave - when were you enjoying the beach? I grew up in Port Richmond - traveled to St. George - transferred to the South Beach line back in the late 40’s into early 50’s if memory still operates well!
I was born in 1932. My trips to the Beach via the single-car trains were in the late 30’s and early 40’s, with my parents. It took an ERA fan trip much later to get me to ride one stop further to the actual end of the line at that one-door long high platform station
Wentworth Avenue?
Up through summer 1940 we would board the 9th Avenue elevated at 86th Street and Columbus Avenue. I would ride the front car, being careful not to step infront of the motorman’s inner window on the front platform, while Dad and Mom would be sitting almost anywhere. At South Ferry one walked on the same level from the elevated train platform into the Ferry building for boarding the upper deck of the ferry. St. George in those days had ramps so one didn’t need stairs to the platforms. The old BMT-like SIRT muc-cars also permitted me to ride the front platform. After the 9th Avenue el was torn town, our trips to Staten Island decreased because of the less convenient access to South Ferry, involving a walk all the way to Broadway to catch a Soutyh Ferry local on the IRT’s B’way-7th Avenue line.
Dad’s lodge had an annual picknick at Grant City and that allowed more SIRT riding.
Then came my railfan circle trip, to Tottonville on the SIRT, across to Pearth Amboy on the simpe ferry, and back to Manhattan on the Pennsy.
My last trip on the SIRT was a return from New Dorp after visiting Richmond Cemetary to check on the grave of Bob Marcus, who had often crewed with me at Branford and who had worked running streetcars for both Third Avenue Transit and Los Angeles Railways. This was June 1996.
I lived by exit 117 of the GSP & had to commute to the WTC. Well their was a strike so I drove to SI hopped on the SIRT then the ferry to downtown NYC. [:D]
The SIRT mu cars were built similar to the BMT “Steels” or B-types. They may have been designed by Stillwell, known most for the Erie cars, but also designer of the BMT and Hudson and Manhattan and NY Westchester & Boston, and other cars. In fact, when the postwar administration of the Transit Authority could not get rid of wood elevated cars fast enough, still running shuttle service on the outer end of the BMT West End line during rush hours for quicker turn-around of the steels (Bay Parkway - Coney Island), some surplus SIRT cars were transferred to the BMT and operated if I remember correctly in Culver and in Franklin Shuttle service. Later, the cars remaining on the SIRT, reduced only to the Tottenville service that survives today, with North Shore- Arlington without passenger service (the tracks now being rebuilt) and South Beach ripped up, became unreliable and parts were obsolete and hard to obtain. So for a while some Long Island RR 1948-era mu’s, replaced in 1967 by the first M-1 Budd high-floor-only cars, provided some of the service. Then came the modified R-44 long four-door-per side subway cars, which I think are still running.
On those early trips, including my solo fan trip to Tottonville and Perth Ambor, one still saw B&O camelback steam engines on freight trains. I imagine they were 2-8-0’s but I don’t really have a good memory. If any B&O fan has the information, please add your comments. And I do remember B&O diesels, and I think they were GE 77 tonners, but they may have been EMD SW-9’s. Definitely switchers and not road power. On one fan trip a diesel with adapter coupler pulled the original mu’s to Port Ivory. This was the kind of the thing John Kneiling, later TRAIN’s “Resident Iconoclast” could arange. But that was one trip where there were no trolley poles for me to put up and pull down for him and the engineer or motorman. That was about 1949 I would guess.
If a ferry boat was delayed, the connecting trains were usually held.
The responses are terrific! Just what I had hoped for …
For Dave Klepper: I arrived on scene in 1938, so we have been around awhile.
Yes, Wentworth Avenue was the last stop on the South Beach line. Keep that info handy for a Trivial Pursuit game for New Yorkers! Just so you will have it, here are the stations between St. George to Wentworth:
Tomkinsville - Stapleton - Clifton - Rosebank - Belair Road - Ft. Wadsworth - Arrochar - Cedar Avenue and South Beach. Bring back any memories??
There is a great picture of a steam loco pulling a consist of wooden ‘L’ type coaches in Grasmere (1919). Take a look at the site I mentioned for Sliver Leaf Transit. Unfortunately, the angle taken does not lend itself to further identification of the loco (drivers, etc.).
Since I departed the Island in the early 60’s - I don’t have any info regarding great, or not so great, “eateries.” I do know that in Port Richmond, there was one helluva Kosher Deli called Sams - on Richmond Avenue. The food was outstanding and the place was about 5 blocks from the Port Richmond station at Church Street. But you know … Sams may have opened AFTER service was removed on the S.I.R.T. - hazy memory.
Insofar as the cars are concerned, this I know - the ones I rode were purchased in 1925 and they were 67 ft, electrified and required high-level platforms. Your additional info (and that from “BaltACD”) adds much to the story. Thanx!
Regarding the transfer of those cars to the BMT - the info I found on the Silver Leaf Rapid Transit web site indicates that they saw most service on the Culver-nassau route and also on the West End Short Line and Franklin Suttle. In 1961, the former S.I.R.T. cars were sent the way of the torch as replacement R27 cars arrived for the BMT.
Did you know that in the great St. George Ferry Terminal fire (June 25, 1946) the S.I.R.T. lost eight cars with about the same number damaged? The ticket booth agen
Well downtown NYC was known also as the steamship district & my career was in the S/ship industry. One of the companies I worked for had offices way up in the WTC. I was elected to be the fire marshall for my floor & was trained by NYFD how to lead my floor down in case of a emergency. If I still worked their on 9/11 I would have been fried as I worked higher up then where the 1st plane hit. I used to spend my lunch hours watching the WTC rise so I guess I can say that I saw the rise & fall of the WTC sorry to say. My normal commute was the North Jersey Coast Line to Newark then the PATH to the WTC. :D]
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo
The responses are terrific! Just what I had hoped for …
For Dave Klepper: I arrived on scene in 1938, so we have been around awhile.
Yes, Wentworth Avenue was the last stop on the South Beach line. Keep that info handy for a Trivial Pursuit game for New Yorkers! Just so you will have it, here are the stations between St. George to Wentworth:
Tomkinsville - Stapleton - Clifton - Rosebank - Belair Road - Ft. Wadsworth - Arrochar - Cedar Avenue and South Beach. Bring back any memories??
There is a great picture of a steam loco pulling a consist of wooden ‘L’ type coaches in Grasmere (1919). Take a look at the site I mentioned for Sliver Leaf Transit. Unfortunately, the angle taken does not lend itself to further identification of the loco (drivers, etc.).
Since I departed the Island in the early 60’s - I don’t have any info regarding great, or not so great, “eateries.” I do know that in Port Richmond, there was one helluva Kosher Deli called Sams - on Richmond Avenue. The food was outstanding and the place was about 5 blocks from the Port Richmond station at Church Street. But you know … Sams may have opened AFTER service was removed on the S.I.R.T. - hazy memory.
Insofar as the cars are concerned, this I know - the ones I rode
For spbed: That’s interesting about your connection to the steamship industry. My father had a long career with Waterman steamship of Mobile, Alabama. Most of the ships he was assigned to as 3rd - 2nd and 1st mates were out of Baltimore, although from time to time he would luck out and get a NY ship.
My direct connection with the steamship industry is somewhat oblique. My father got me an appointment to take the exam for King’s Point Maritime Academy during my junior year in High School. Well, I didn’t want to go - but I sat for the exam - two days worth. Senator Keating was my political sponsor. Anyway, I placed high on the secondary list and figured there was no way I would be selected. Well, I received a notice that because others on the primary list had declined their appointments - I was next. I attended an indoctrination weekend and that convinced me - I didn’t want any part of that life! Especially with an entire year spent at sea (transferring from ship to ship to ship.)
My father was bitterly disappointed in my decision. Well, I “showed him,” as I enlisted in the Coast Guard and became a commissioned officer 14 1/2 years later - stayed on for 17 more and retired as a Commander. Amazing turn of events - as life usually can be.
Well I know the name Waterman. I was a office minion though except for sailing on the Queen’s to Europe & taking a West Indies cruise I did not go to sea. I started in the biz as the gofer & wound up as a senior intermodal traffic manger. When I left I started my own biz between the USA/the Far East to Russia. Had offices in Moscow & St. Pete with Russian Russians working for me. To bad the Russian economy collapsed abour 5 years ago otherwise I may have earned enough to buy my favorite FB team.
I am also aware of Kings Point & who Sen. Keating is. From being aboard the ships while they were in port I would speak with the officers & ask them what it is like. They mostly said depending on the area of destination was their biggest concern as some places were unsafe. None though that I spoke to were ever concerned that the ship would be hijacked. I once worked for the company who operated the nuclear ship Savannah & besides being on board the vessel I also met the 1st mate who was a Kings Point grad & lived in SI. [:D]
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo
For spbed: That’s interesting about your connection to the steamship industry. My father had a long career with Waterman steamship of Mobile, Alabama. Most of the ships he was assigned to as 3rd - 2nd and 1st mates were out of Baltimore, although from time to time he would luck out and get a NY ship.
My direct connection with the steamship industry is somewhat oblique. My father got me an appointment to take the exam for King’s Point Maritime Academy during my junior year in High School. Well, I didn’t want to go - but I sat for the exam - two days worth. Senator Keating was my political sponsor. Anyway, I placed high on the secondary list and figured there was no way I would be selected. Well, I received a notice that because others on the primary list had declined their appointments - I was next. I attended an indoctrination weekend and that convinced me -
I remember an SIRT Alco switcher working around B&O’s Glenwood yard near Pittsburgh, Pa. in the late 1970’s. It may have been there for maintenance at the backshop.
For spbed: I’ve always had great respect for those who start at the bottom rung and then work their way upwards. Sounds like you had a very rewarding career.
My father never knew of my advancements through the enlisted ranks to commissioned status. Last time I saw him was in 1958 - I was a 2nd Class Petty officer (Radioman) with orders to report to a 180 ft buoy tender in Kodiak, Alaska. However, if there is a “hereafter,” no doubt he smiled a bit when the “news” reached him. Fathers are that way …
Regards …
For daveklepper: YES - you win the prize! Clifton was the junction. I guess the prize could be something like a lifetime free pass for S.I.R.T. travel - I’ll see what can be done!!
Be talking to ya …
For mvlandsw: Never knew that! I’ll have to do some “surfing” to perhaps find some more info on the switcher.
Thanx!
DID YOU KNOW?
Did you know that the SIRT once had a spur to the Mount Loretto children’s home in Pleasant Plains, near the end of the line in Tottenville? The spur accommodated steam engines and wasn’t electrified like the rest of the line. Although the service ended by mid-century, the tracks were in place until the 1980s and the spur’s junction with the SIRT was recently removed. (quoted from http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html)
Thx for the kudos. My dad had left my mom when I was 5 so he to never saw my success. I am sorry for you that your dad did not get the opportunity to see yours as well. Yes controlling large bloc’s of freight get you lots of perks & for a rail fan like me I really made sure to take advantage of everyone of them. I actually at one time used to rent a loco from Conrail to spot cars at our own private intermodal terminal. After the cars were spotted I had the loco engineer let my kids operate it on a trip from No Bergen to the bridge in Jersey City that goes over the Hackensack River. Their were many good experiences that sorry to say my kids say so what even to operating the loco! Good weekend to you [:D]
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by siberianmo
For spbed: I’ve always had great respect for those who start at the bottom rung and then work their way upwards. Sounds like you had a very rewarding career.
My father never knew of my advancements through the enlisted ranks to commissioned status. Last time I saw him was in 1958 - I was a 2nd Class Petty officer (Radioman) with orders to report to a 180 ft buoy tender in Kodiak, Alaska. However, if there is a “hereafter,” no doubt he smiled a bit when the “news” reached him. Fathers are that way …
Regards …
For daveklepper: YES - you win the prize! Clifton was the junction. I guess the prize could be something like a lifetime free pass for S.I.R.T. travel - I’ll see what can be done!!
Be talking to ya …
For mvlandsw: Never knew that! I’ll have to do some “surfing” to perhaps find some more info on the switcher.
Thanx!
DID YOU KNOW?
Did you know that the SIRT once had a spur to the Mount Loretto children’s home in Pleasant Plains, near the end of the line in Tottenville? The spur accommodated steam engines and wasn’t electrified like the rest of the line. Although the service ended by mid-century,
Hey spbed - I meant to comment on the GSP in an earlier thread. Back in the days of the “gas wars” when the refineries made it so the prices were 17 cents a gallon (yes - that happened!) - I could take my '53 Studebaker for a weekend drive along the GSP. Aside from the “one arm bandit” machines, the drive was great!
Your kids must have some great memories - especially when it comes to real trains. I just can’t imagine having the opportunity to “drive” a locomotive! Then again, not too many kids could relate to being taken aboard a freighter in Baltimore, bound for Long Beach, CA - then put on a train, and sent back to NYC in bedroom facilities. All when I was about 8 or 9 - kind of hazy with the year. Some memories are better than others and some last forever.
Yes I can relate to that as I keep books on every car I had which included gas prices.
I would not consider a joy ride s/bound on summer Friday nites or n/bound on Sunday nites
My sons impression at the time was oh well. They were not RR fans so the experience for them is not what it was for me.
I also rode up in a couple of DHRR shark nosed diesels. That was a real trip but I wonder what would happen if the tracks gave way & you are doing 60 per.
Since I worked in the S/S industry I use to take them aboard ships but alas that also bored them to tears as well. Proves that one person thing is not anothers.
Wow that is wonderful & hope that your impressions was better then my 2 sons. [:D]
The weekend is upon us and I’m STILL at it (?) - “Get a life,” you say? Ha ha.
Back to the GSP - no joke about southbound on Friday and northbound on Sunday (evenings ) - slow 'n go, slow 'n go. I’d rather not know what it is like today! Used to spend some time at my girl friends parents cottage at Lavellette Beach - sometimes I’d take the train in lieu of driving. My recollections go back into the mid-50’s - so I can just imagine what it all is like today.
Also in later years (early Coast Guard), I spent some time at Cranberry Lake near Netcong (I think). Great summer memories from there too - but alas, no trains involved!
Just wondering, do you get to Staten Island very much these days? I was back in 1981 for a 25th high school reunion - spent about 5 days there. Great fun seeing the “chums” and “gals” of my day (some I really had a hard time figuring out just WHO they were!!).
I had taken a USAF flight from Scott AFB in Illinois to Andrews AFB outside of DC then Amtrak (Metroliner) to Newark where a buddy met me. Driving over to “the Island” was very nostalgic and here it is 2005 (!!) and that reunion seems like yeserday.
If I have any regrets about my time there in 1981 it was that I never rode the train to Tottenville! Don’t know why - don’t even think I gave it a bit of thought. Shame on me.
Another DID YOU KNOW?
South Beach Plus One. Though South Beach was nominally the last stop on the branch of the same name, passengers could be carried an additional station to Wentworth Avenue, undoubtedly the shortest rapid transit station passenger station in the world. Its platform accomodated a single door of one car. (from http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html) Long live the memories of the S.I.R.T.!!