Irrespective of the opaqueness of the transactions, all legitimate accounting entries, including legitimate cash transfers, can be traced eventually. This is true for all modes of transport. Thus, the amount of support for the airlines, as well as Amtrak, can be found if one knows where to look and has the tools to dig it out. There is no evidence that the nation’s airports and airlines have been the beneficiaries of fraudulent government transactions.
Getting the information can be a daunting challenge. It took me months to understand how federal dollars are shifted from the general fund to the Highway Trust Fund, the Airport and Airways Trust Fund, Amtrak, etc. I have a pretty good idea of how these dollars flow into and out of these funds. Moreover, I have looked closely at the financials for Love Field in Dallas, although to get a crystal picture of them I had to ask a couple of friends in the city for clarification on several items.
To know the total cash flows to all of the airports and airlines, as well as Amtrak, one would have to look at the financials and accounting records for every airport and train station in America. This would be a daunting task. It would take a small army of auditors to flush out all the information. But it could be done. Accordingly, although the so-called subsidies may be unknown to the public, they are not hidden from people who know where to look for them.
That would cover the direct cost side. Then you’d have one more huge task before you could make any rational judgement. What are the benefits? There are the direct revenues, but then, are there any benefits that wind up other places, like public health, surrounding land valuation, industrial development opportunities, etc.
Irrespective of the opaqueness of the transactions, all legitimate accounting entries, including legitimate cash transfers, can be traced eventually. This is true for all modes of transport. Thus, the amount of support for the airlines, as well as Amtrak, can be found if one knows where to look and has the tools to dig it out. There is no evidence that the nation’s airports and airlines have been the beneficiaries of fraudulent government transactions.
Getting the information can be a daunting challenge. It took me months to understand how federal dollars are shifted from the general fund to the Highway Trust Fund, the Airport and Airways Trust Fund, Amtrak, etc. I have a pretty good idea of how these dollars flow into and out of these funds. Moreover, I have looked closely at the financials for Love Field in Dallas, although to get a crystal picture of them I had to ask a couple of friends in the city for clarification on several items.
To know the total cash flows to all of the airports and airlines, as well as Amtrak, one would have to look at the financials and accounting records for every airport and train station in America. This would be a daunting task. It would take a small army of auditors to flush out all the information. But it could be done. Accordingly, although the so-called subsidies may be unknown to the public, they are not hidden from people who know where to look for them.
That would cover the direct cost side. Then you’d have one more huge task before you could make any rational judgement. What are the benefits? There are the direct revenues, but then, are there any benefits t
I used to ride Amtrak from Aldershot, Ontario to Rennselaer when I had busines with Amrak. It was pleasant , economical and just about as fast as flying since the air connections from Toronto to Albany vary from torturous to non-existant.and Toronto is 35 miles from my home and Aldershot is only 10 miles Also took the same train to Washington DC ( with a change in Penn Station) when I was giving a paper there. A 13 hour trip but pleasant…
I just returned to Tucson from Little Rock to visit my family and celebrate my son in laws return from deployment to Afganistan and my daughters and granddaughters birthdays. I sit in the dome car upper or lower on Amtrak to really get close and personal with the freight trains going in the opposite direction. At night I like the tremendous rush I get next to the window in the coach seat and the trains run more steady in the evenings. I’m a retired auto engineer with plenty of time. I take Amtrak from Tucson to AnnArbor MI and return through San Antonio , St Louis, and Chicago, all hot spots. Tower 55 in Fort Worth is a great sight as is the Mississippi river , and the Chicago railyards. I have’nt flown since 9/11 and don’t plan on it unless in an emergency. I would rather take the Sunset Limited,Texas Eagle,and Wolverine. For any rail fan a cross country trip is an adventure.
to daveklepper: I generally agree. I am a #4 and #5 and have ridden almost all of amtrak’s LD trains over the years. another category I have frequently seen riding the trains are amish/mennonite (especially on the ‘cardinal’ and the ‘broadway limited’). the importance of the small town on/off loadings is usually overlooked by anti-amtrak people. yes, it is cheaper and better to fly, rather than train, new york-chicago; new york-miami; chicago-los angeles, etc., but there are dozens of small towns along the way where amtrak offers transportation to many people that don’t/can’t drive and flying is way too expensive or distant to an airport.
Which type of transporation service should be subsidized by a soon to be bankrupt country? Let’s look at the big picture! Would love to ask the more “fiscal conservatives” on here how they feel about the whooshing sound they hear caused by money handed to foreign dictators or the $700 billion spent on Iraq. The $26 billion provided to Mubarak might have built airports, fixed highways, replaced Amtraks aging fleet, etc. Maybe, some of these funds should be directed to aid Wisconsin and other states, so public employees don’t have to protest in the streets of Madison?
Let’s be fair and ask “why sould any type of transportation be subsidized by a soon to be bankrupt country?” rather than “which type of transportation”? Why should one be subsidized more than another? We know the answere: lobbyists, we’eve always done its, conservatives, and the niave!
This makes an assumption that that money would exist in the first place. The aid to Egypt is a complicated beast. A lot of the aid provided to Egypt under the terms of their ceasefire with Israel returns to the United States in arms purchases. This has amounted to a total of $32b since 1979. Those sales then provide the revenue that is taxed so that the government can send a check to Egypt. Egypt receives $2b a year from the United States and $1.3b of that must be spent on US made defense systems or they don’t get the money at all. But as it stands right now, at least 65% of the money we provided to Egypt has returned to the United States. Its an oddly self-sustaining device. And it does provide jobs in the various sectors that received contracts from Egypt. But the circular nature of the money’s cycle makes it difficult, if not impossible, to assume that the money being spent on Egyptian aid would even exist to spend on other projects, if not for the Egyptian aid program. You run into some pretty heavy duty number work when you have to figure out what price Egypt gets on an F-16, how much of that money is returned to the US government through taxes on Boeing, income taxes on the workers that built the fighter, and so on, and what percentage of a dollar sent to Egypt is based on revenue directly received from the sale to Egypt. A portion of the deal is that we also get priority access to the Suez canal, which I’m figuring is a pretty good thing to have. I’m not saying that this is good or bad. Just that it is. And realistically the percentage is quite low. But it must still be accounted for. That dollar sent to Egypt had to come from somewhere, after all.
It depends on your definition of subsidy and what is “wastefull” Check out the writings of Andrew Selden of the UPRA. I have seen from Caltrans statistics that the supposedly “lowly” , useless Coast Starlight (one train a day each direction long distance train–about 40, 000 passengers per month) generates nearly as much fare revenue per month as the Pacific Surfliners–multiple daily trains, about 250,000 monthly passengers.
So to Sam1 and others who are so cocksure of their info, which train generates more fare revenue per passenger–the Coast Starlight by a wide margin
Great point. Airlines are generously subsidized, but it is carefully buried in the depths of the FAA, DOT, and hundreds of local airport authorities.
LIke your example of Wichita, if an airport like that applies for and gets $100 mil for runway expansion, is that cost ever fully expressed through ticket prices?
The financial report for the South Bend Indiana Regional Airport ( another medium sized airport) a couple of years ago showed that they need about $2 mil to $3 mil per year of local property tax money to balance the books–and that is not counting the $150 mil runway expansion they are now in the middle of. Not sure why they are doing it. 80% of their flights are commuter flights with turboprops and regional jets, and the current runways could handle up to 757’ s already
First of all, I am not anti-passenger rail. Neither are Paul M, Phoebe Vet or oltmannd, to name a few. On the contrary, I favor the expansion of passenger rail into new corridor services, which by definition, are 300-500 miles - elapsed time <5 hours - in length, with speed increasing to HrSR and HSR levels.
However, long distance routes, like the Coast Starlight, CZ, EB, etc. are untenable and should be phased out. You point out that they generate considerable revenue, at least on certain routes, which is quite true. But you overlook the operating expense side, so that those trains end up being huge money losers. That loss detracts from other Amtrak routes and given Amtrak’s limited budget (which may well decrease, at best), prevents expansion of service on the shorter routes. The equipment costs for Superliners, especially sleepers, would be better spent on modern coaches that can be intensively used in fast, frequent corridor services.
It is also a futile argument to keep pointing out how much subsidy air travel (in all forms, including private and corpora
Andrew Selden has an interesting hypothesis regarding Amtrak long-distance trains. It is what I call the bus-on-steel-wheels.
Amtrak financials are all pooled and then allocated to the different services (such as “Empire Builder” or “Acela” or “Auto Train” and so on). There is almost no data on what individual services are doing. For example, one of the dead horses I keep beating on is to get a breakout of fuel consumption by the different services as a way of supporting (or perhaps not) that increased train service, especially on “corridors” would be fuel saving.
The Selden/URPA view is that the long distance trains pay some nominal fee to use the tracks, but beyond that you are running a “bus on steel wheels” (actually my words of interpretation), and in the opinion of URP
I’m one of those who rides because I love trains. And nostalgia too,My parents worked for Frisco, that’s how they met and we traveled all over the US on Dad’s pass. So when I ride a train, I think of my many trips with them and all the wonderful memories come flooding back.
Airlines today are such a hassle, unless you have to get somewhere in a hurry, I’d rather take a train.
Sleepers are more expensive, but for long trips, I would prefer them to coach. Spent many long trips on coaches with my parents and with people milling around all night, noises and many stops, we never had a good night’s sleep. But it was free, so what the heck. And in those days, smoking was allowed on the trains, so there was a steady stream of people going back & forth from the men’s and ladies lounge areas for their smokes.
I’'ve ridden the Builder, Coast Starlight and Southwest Chief and have enjoyed every one of the trips. Money is the only thing that prevents me from taking more train trips.
Long distance Amtrak is great. I have travelled across the country 3x. Also took Amtrak from Seattle in L.A and from NC to Boston. Each trip has been fantastic. As for flying I can’t stand it nowadays and avoid the airlines as much as possible. Shame, as I used to enjoy flying almost as much as train travel.
I always felt that long distance, overnight Amtrak was no worse than in Europe.
I ride Amtrak anytime I can. It is far more comfortable than air travel. I am not wealthy but It is a great way to get to see my folks and the country. The Empire Builder’s route is a wonder in all seasons. I just wish I had more time off. I would love to do a week going from Chicago, Washington, to Boston and home.
It was half way through October 2009 when my wife decided she wanted to see USA. I was reluctant so said I want a real train ride. Mid November we took off from Sydney in overnight (plus a bit) cattle class international air connecting at LA with domestic US air to JFK. Then I got my train rides with Amtrak. Penn to DC (coach morning) then to Chicago (roomette overnight) followed by two nights double bedroom to SanFrancisco and coach to LA (well almost, a bus for the last bit) The sleeping car, or at least the dining car gave us the oportunity to meet a new bunch of real Americans at every meal, a highlight of our visit to your country. As we took off from SF in our next overnight cattle car my other half was asking me what other train runs were available and when we could go again. Start selling just a little harder, as my wife is, and you just might get more of us foreigners to visit your country.