What is their problem? NTSB just nailed them to the wall for having multiple signalling systems. It that not enough of a warning? Or is the multimillions of law suits that follow cause them to make things consistent. This is not a hard problem. Upgrade all the signal systems so that yellow over red means the same in every system.
Is that a question, or an opinion? If it’s an opinion, then I can not help you.
RWM
One answer: cost. It would take billions to standardize everything. Billions that an be better spent (IMO) elsewhere. On all my territory yellow over red means approach (unless its a dwarf, then its a slow approach). If I ran somewhere where it meant different, then I guess I’d have to learn it. That’s the definition of being qualified.
This is about the NTSB findings on the wreck of the Pere Marquette on the south side of Chicago a couple of years ago (see the April 1 “Newswire”). The recommendations were for positive train control and uniform signal rules.
We debated signal uniformity back when the accident happened–Positive Train Control requirements have since come about, and PTC probably would make the confusion meaningless, if nothing else. Or perhaps, since PTC has to be a standardized system, it may require remaining signals (and their rules) to become more standardized.
BTW, I’m kind of smug about being the first person in that earlier thread to come up with what turned out to be the actual cause of this wreck. Guess I’m in the wrong side of business!
But I agree with Zug–in the here and now, you have to know all of your signal systems to be truly qualified on a territory,
Even traffic signals aren’t really standardized - I can think of several ways that left turns are handled, and that can vary even within one municipality. Ever sit an an unfamiliar intersection, wondering if/when the light was going to change in your favor?
The basics of railroad signalling are there, and are actually fairly consistent across the country, from what I’ve seen. Yes, there are differences. Many are location specific, so making them consistent with every place else will require an extensive survey of the entire rail system to see if there is anywhere else like them so the aspects can be made the same. That might not be worth the cost.
It does come down to money - new electronics, etc. It also comes down to whose system becomes the standard. In simplest terms (and we all know it won’t be simple), with seven class ones, six will be learning some new signal aspects.
In the meantime, as others have said, you have to know your territory.
The NTSB’s charge is to describe what it would take for perfect safety. How it is paid for, or whether there are more effective means of spending the same amount of money to obtain even more safety, is not their charge. Just because the NTSB recommends something doesn’t mean it is cost-effective, except for fanatics who live in alternative realities where money costs nothing.
PTC renders it all moot anyway. Alas, for the small minority of railfans who believe that signal aspects should be according to their ideas of what is perfect, the signal aspects will not change, at first roll-out of PTC. Eventually all the signals will go away, and with it the aspects, as PTC renders them superfluous, but I expect that 50 years from now there will still be fanatics arguing over which signal aspect system was the “correct” signal aspect system, just as they still argue over which steam engine was the “best” 50 years after the last of them was melted into rebar.
RWM
I am under the impression that American railroads are private enterprise. They, not the US Government,control their respective right of ways including signaling. I thought that all crews had to understand the rulebook.I thought that dispachers were company and not federal employees
In Britain,even after nationalization,there was no standardized signaling. The Great Western used lower quadrant semaphores and seachlight signals,not usually seen on the other three companies that became British Railways.GWR engines also had right hand drive,unique to the GWR.The LMS LNER and Southern all used upper quadrant semaphores and had left hand drive. In 1956 there was a serious accident with fatalities when the crew missed a restrictive signal.The engine assigned to the train was a Britannia class 4-6-2 with left hand drive. The track was ex-GWR and so was the crew.The train’s driver(engineer) told investigators that the accident would not have happened if they would have been assigned a Castle class 4-6-0, a GWR engine.It was considered a pretty lame excuse. There were many times that crews had to operate a locomotive where seeing signals would be a problem. Even before World War II,the GWR had trackage rights over other lines in which they used their own locomotives.Doesn’t it get back to trainning and the rulebook !
Even with the lack of a single standard system, I would have to say that the accidents caused by mis-interpretation do to a lack of knowing the meaning of the signal are extremely rare. I’d venture a guess that simply misreading a signal happens more frequently. That is, for example, the engineer faces a yellow aspect and in his mind decides it is a less restrictive flashing yellow. The single standard system doesn’t solve that problem.
Interesting that you mention flashing signals. Everywhere I know of, with one exception, flashing is “better” than not flashing. The theory is that if the flashing circuit quits, then you either get the more restrictive steady indication or you get a dark signal - which is the same as the most restrictive signal that could be displayed.
The one exception is one of the newest aspects in NA RRing. Amtrak has a “flashing green” which is used for diverging moves on their high speed Xovers. I suspect it was cheaper to come up with a “vital” flashing circuit for a few locations, than any other possible solution.
Some roads use signals to indicate diverging or normal routes thru switches (clear vs. diverging clear) and some use signals to also indicate the permissible speed (clear vs medium clear (30 mph) for a #15 or limited clear (40 or 45 mph) for a #20) and some use signalling to control civil speeds (curves, etc.) It would seem to me that creating a national standard around these would be difficult. You either have to just do the lowest common denominator, leaving everything else wide open (e.g. red over green would be approach diverging with no speed implications. RR #1 would use timetable to specify speed. RR#2 could use red over green to mean 30 mph and red over flashing green to mean 40 mph.) or you tie down everything meaning red over green means 30 mph regadles of turnout geometry. If RR#2 wants 40 mph, they have to upgrade to display red over flashing green. It also would mean that every engr. and conductor would have to be qualified on every signal indication everywhere. A BNSF crew out of Alliance NE would have to know that flashing green means 80 mph through the crossover - even if the only place it’s displayed is 1500 miles away on the NEC.
I asked about this some time ago on this forum and I’m surpised that this thread didn’t meet with the same end that mine did. I got a scathing post that instructed me to shut up because signal systems have to be different for reasons that he said were so complex that I could not possibly understand.
With the variety of responses, I would guess that this is a difficult problem. I am sure that most railroads will implement a standardized Positive Train Control that will eventually eliminate line-side signals. The signals will be directly sent to the cabs and those will be standard. As for cost, I seriously doubt the railroads will go much longer before the lawsuits due to non-standardized signals will overshadow any of the costs. This is how our system works: 1) Free enterprise resists change 2) Government steps in to standardize things 3) Free enterprise resists further until they are sued or go out of business. And the traffic lights and signs in the U.S. are standardized according to the U. S. Dept of Transportation Federal Highway Administration, Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices. (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/)
PTC is basically everyone starting from scratch, so there is not a variety of systems needing to be standardized. As has been pointed out, signals vary from railroad to railroad (and within railroads). Which one do you pick as best? Who gets the economic advantage in already having that system so they don’t need to change while all the others do? Which signal company wins the lottery and puts all the others out of business because they make the winning system?
The signals are standardized - the applications not so much. This is best illustrated in the variety of left turn set-ups you can find, often in the same city. This is roughly analagous to the specialized signal aspects found at interlockings.
How many years did it take for “right turn on red” to make it across the country?
But you are right - on the highway Red means stop, Green means go. Amber does take on some interesting interpretations, though, ranging from “proceed with caution” to “hurry up before the light turns.”
And the signals on the railroads mean the same thing in a large percentage of the cases. The devil is in the details.
For those of us who like to look at the actual NTSB documents (“source” data), below are the links to the available documents and my few comments. The NTSB’s final report (many pages) hasn’t been finalized yet, so that’s why it’s not included.
The most interesting aspect of this to me is that one of he FRA regulations actually requires essentially that for railroad signals, Red = Stop, Green = Proceed, and Yellow (or Lunar) = Stop May Be Required. Aside from providing some sense of rationality to the system (and furnishing hope that someday I’ll understand it better), since the Amtrak engineer was looking at a Red over Yellow I have to wonder what he was expecting to happen - what part of “might have to stop” did he not understand ? More importantly, as some of the comments above state, this is already is a standard or uniform system for signals !
The actual text of the regulation is also below, from:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/octqtr/pdf/49cfr236.23.pdf
None of this is very difficult reading - I recommend it.
- Paul North.
PART 236–RULES, STANDARDS, AND INSTRUCTIONS GOVERNING THE INSTALLATION, INSPECTION, MAINTENANCE, AND REPAIR OF SIGNAL AND TRAIN CONTROL SYSTEMS, DEVICES, AND APPLIANCES
§ 236.23 Aspects and indications.
(d) The fundamental indications of signal aspects shall conform to the following:
Yes, we have nearly standard basic signals for the railroad, but according to the NTSB report there is a big difference between slow approach and restricting. There should never be THAT confusion in any signal system. One drives completely differently when “restricted” than when in a slower speed. This is just all the more argument for Positive Train Control which is going to be far more expensive than standardizing the signals in a particular area.
Do we have TORT LAWYERS or their SURROGATES using this site, and if so what are they seeking???
If not then those who continue to press on with this question (which has been responded to in detail) should clearly identify their motivations.
Signal systems…even when implemented on the now Fallen Flag carriers were installed over time…the time required to come up with both the traffic to require signaling an the funds to be able to install it. No Class I Carrier ever went from being non-signaled to totally signaled in one fell swoop at one time with a single technology. As time and technology march on from innovation to innovation signaling technology also moves on from innovation to innovation. As each new segment of signaling was installed, the latest ‘proven’ technology was installed in the new segment. Even if original segment 1 and newly installed segment 99 display the same physical signal aspects…the technology underlying those aspect is totally different. The foregoing presumes that the management of the signal system remains constant.
Consistent management is something that never occurs in large organizations. People retire, people die, people get promoted, people get fired, people leave for other companies and the hallmark of management is, like dogs, they have to leave their marks on their territory. Even if Management A had achieved PERFECTION, Management B has to change it. Now if you view the Fallen Flag carriers from the approximate time electrical signalling was begun to being installed in the approximation of 1900, and factor in that senior Signalling Management changed approximately every 7 to 10 years or so on each of the Fallen Flag carriers, factor in the changing of technology with multiple signal equipment manufacturers over these times, multiplied by the number of Fallen Flag carriers that now make up the current Class I carriers you will begin to see the the complexity of the installed signal infrastructure that currently exists in the industry.
I’m not sure I can agree with your line of thinking here. Can you provide a couple examples where this has happened in the past?
You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that non-standardized signals are the root of the problem. The industry may believe the root of the problem is operators not following the signals. In your scenario, after the government forces the free enterprise railroads to fix what the govenment sees as the problem, the problems will still occur. After that, who do you sue, and what will the government standardize then?
It’s obvious that the historical record, facts, reason and logic mean nothing to this poster.
Does he even know about “In the Matter of Container Service”, the “Big John” struggle, the fight with the government to allow unit trains, or the countless other attempts by government regulators to prevent change for the better in railroading? If he knew, would he even care? I really doubt that he would.
Since about 1903, the government has consistantly blocked, prevented and stymied progress in US railroading. But that fact doesn’t fit the poster’s political ideology. So we get this rant from him.
No way does this guy understand the signal system, but he is giving his opinion just the same. I hope he can understand this. I am a engineer who is qualified over 350 miles of trackage and 7 differant railroads, and the signal system they use. It is standardized in that red means stop green means go and yellow means you may stop, not hard to understand, I have seen a few slow appraoch signals in my time And to tell you the truth i have never been diverted or ran thru a yard with a slow aproach signal. If the man did not understand the signal he should have called the dispatcher and asked.