Hi all-
First, let me apologize in advance for what might seem to be a naive question. I’m just curious.
What’s the attraction of a brass loco? In fact, I’ve seen brass structures in the magazines too. So why might someone be willing to pay big bucks for a brass item that will need to be painted (which hides the brass anyway?)?
Thanks.
Locos: they look better, though they do not run as well. They also have some models that were never made in plastic.
Buildings: scale size is easier, but plastic buildings are more availible, and wood still models wood the best.
If you simply HAVE to have a nice model of SP&S’s business car #99 in its early modernized version, you will be buying a brass one or you’ll be waiting a VERY long time for a plastic one. Other than that, no particular reason for brass.
Note please that you can substitute a lot of other items for my specific example.
Ed
Brass was at one time the benchmark for quality. Brass is much cheaper to tool for than diecasting and molding so it can be made in small numbers for unusual pieces. Brass also allows for sharp details with processes such as photo etching. Brass is much more labor intensive to assemble than cast which is why the prices are much higher.
Recently, brass has lost its fame to to modern diecasting technology. CNC machining of tooling and computer design software have made the detail on todays mass produced cast trains as good as what you see on brass.
There was surely a time when brass meant fidelity to the prototype that virtually no other model could offer. That meant expensive, and that, in turn, gave it a certain exclusivity which appeals universally, a cachet that makes heads turn just a much as a red Ferrari will.
It seems that the brass models often required extensive tinkering before they would run well, so their appeal was relegated to the visual aspect as time went on. Some folks love tinkering, and ran 'em, others couldn’t be bothered, and just wanted to be able to say they had a fine brass locomotive…or 20.
Now that we have better plastic that rivals brass in appearances…in some case…the disparity is quickly shrinking. For all that, I still have a Key PRR J1 on somebody’s drawing board…I think. I hope. [:P]
Jambam–
I can answer your question only on a personal basis. The railroad that I model–a combination of Denver and Rio Grande and Southern Pacific steam–is set in the WWII period. So far, the only accurate steam locomotives for D&RGW are available in brass. Ergo, in order to run accurate prototype Rio Grande steamers, I run brass, except for two plastic steamers that represents locomotives that Rio Grande bought second-hand during the War. There are some plastic models of SP steam available, but even these are quite limited at this time, so most of my SP steamers are likewise, brass.
Now you’ll probably get answers that question the running capabilities of brass as opposed to the more modern ABS/Cast/Plastic-cast steamers from such contemporary manufactures such as BLI, PCM, Spectrum and Proto, and for the most part, modelers who buy these newer locomotives are very satisfied with their IMMEDIATE running and pulling capabilites. I have several of these also, and for the most part, I’m pretty satisfied.
And there is also the question of brass prices–newer brass is VERY expensive, however used brass can be found for about the same price–or lower–as the newer DC/DCC steamers. However, you have to look. And it’s very seldom that you’ll find a brass locomotive that will run as well as a newer steamer ‘right out of the box’. Brass needs to be ‘tinkered’ with. Some brass needs re-weighting and re-balancing. Some used brass needs new can motors and occasionally new gearboxes.
That’s the downside. Tinkering. Maybe one to three hours fiddling with it. Upside: About two to three years of good running. And I RUN my brass, don’t just sit there looking at it.
Okay, I know that sounds frustrating, but by and large, brass is VERY forgiving to work with. I’ve also heard about older detail parts falling off of brass l
Would you rather have a bronze peice of art ar a plastic one. Brass like bronze is permanent. If you leave a brass loco in the window it wont melt,or warp. It like diamonds, forever.
I can understand the, “doggie,” in the window thing, but why on earth would you put your brass or plastic loco in a window, and leave it there of all things?
Well, like so many other “things”.
“I own a (plugin whatever it is here)”.
Envy and Pride; I think they are two of the seven sins aren’t they? In some rare exteme cases with some “things” you might also include Lust! Like a Ferrari!!
The bottom line is buy what you want. You’re proabably the only one that’s going to see it anyway. If necessary, lie about it!
There is a telling, and huge, degree of truth to this. My locos never see the light of day, except what falls on them through a basement window. They sit where they serve me, my own sense of satisfaction, my ego. A man can’t be seen with a soother in his mouth, but only just somewhat better is a layout with model trains. [:D]
I’m in the category in which if it’s not available in plastic, I’ll look for a brass version of that specific model, like a NH EP4, EP5, Amtrak SDP40f or an SAL Baldwin Centipede. If I run into any one of these for the right price, the body would not be in a brass finish for long once I prep it and then whip out the airbrush.
Nothing wrong with collecting and displaying them as beautiful works of art. But after 30 years in this hobby, I enjoy watching my trains going to work! Even better now that we have sound and super realistic lighting effects.
The only brass pieces that appeal to me are those that I want that aren’t otherwise available in plastic. I will say this (also mentioned before; brass is sturdy and will withstand a fair bit of handling that some plastic will not.
I just wonder if the quality of recent plastic models forced Brian Marsh into the plastic model market. I would love to see some sales figures in the brass market (current compared to say…20 years ago).
RayW46, I was thinking of a few warped plastic models I’d seen in hobby shop windows over the years, one particular passenger car that was in a window display had the center of the car heated so badly that it was touching the track. My mind works in funny ways I guess. I read these forum posts and I think I’m in a conversation and you all had heard what I was thinking before I posted. Anyways I actually like both brass and plastic, I like ten wheeler engines and if the price is under $250 there’s a good chance I’ll pick up a Brass engine. But I also like spectrums line of small to medium steam engines.
I am no expert, but my understanding is that the main advantages of brass are its ability to take a much finer detail than diecast, and its weight. Brass is so much heavier than plastic that it can pull heavier trains than plastic. Am I right or wrong? I don’t know that is what I have been told over the years.
Doug
The weight thing was true years ago, but most if not all the plastic stuff is pretty well weighted nowadays.
The higher price for brass was also driven by the collectors market.
The newer brass (the last 10 years) runs just as well as the plastic for the most part, especially Overland with their high tech drives and motors.
If you’re not a collector of brass, then the choice is really about prototype avaiability.
I can only address steam. I cannot address even collectors of brass steam, because I bought mine to run.
People seem to forget that good running decently detailed specific prototype steam locomotives are a VERY recent development. People who model a particular railroad(s) in the steam age, want models of locomotives that railroad operated. Before BLI, if you wanted an N&W Class A 2-6-6-4 you bought brass, or built it yourself, and that was in what, 2004? Brass is still the only way to get a lot, a very large lot, of specific prototype steam engines.
Also, most brass steam engines either ran, or could be made to run, very, very good. And, once adjusted they did not tend to get out of adjustment. There were a few clunkers, but they were not the rule. I still have two brass locos left over from those days, and they run as well as anything else I own or have seen. They pulled well also, usually, because of their weight and the fact that they had fully sprung drivers, although they could usually benefit from softer springs. A lot of plastic models today have gone to better suspensions too, and weight can usually be added without too much trouble, but, the standard of excellence is still the brass loco in my opinion. I believe one reason BLI is offering brass as well as hybrid locos is so that they can be regarded as the supplier of as good a loco as one can buy, as well as the potential profits of course.
I’ve been in this hobby since the 1960s and I have never understood the allure of brass, especially the unpainted models. Certainly I knew back then that much finer detail could be put on a brass loco than what was typically available in plastic but I could never cost justify a lot of added expense for a little extra detail. I’m a runner, not a collector. The most important thing to me is that my locos run well. I want them to look good as well but not to the point of spending 2 to 3 times as much to get the added detail. Since brass serves a niche market, it typically is going to be true to a particular prototype rather than being a generic model that is painted in multiple railroad liveries. Again, if that level of accuracy is important to you, than brass has it’s place, but I am perfectly happy with generic models that look realistic even if they are not totally accurate representations of specific prototypes. I do have one piece of brass which I bought from an estate as part of a collection. I kept some of it, sold or traded the rest. I kept the brass loco which is a 2-6-6-2 steam loco. Years ago I did some research and found that the prototype was on the roster of a western logging railroad, somewhere in the Sierras if my memory serves me correctly. I really don’t have any plans for it because it doesn’t fit my current scheme and it would need to be retrofitted with a decoder. I ran it a few times on my old DC layout and it ran smoothly but was geared for very slow speeds. I’ll probably just hang onto it unless I can find an interested buyer who would appreciate it more than I do and would be willing to pay a fair price.
The two pieces I own are for Sn2 which has no locomotives or passenger cars in plastic or kits. They’ll get me started and I’ll add pieces when I have time to scratchbuild or kitbash from other scales.
Enjoy
Paul
In N Scale, if you want a model of a steam locomotive that was a one road or low production proto type, for the most part you will be looking at brass. I wanted an M3 Yellowstone, so I had to go with the high dollar brass model. I have no regrets. For the money, I got a precision piece of machinery that operates reliably, needs little maintenance, pulls extremely well and has been on my layout for almost 2 years. Wether I am pulling ore cars to the docks on Lake Michigan or a freight drag up Tennesse pass on the Rio Grande; I am still able to operate the DMIR 224 model rather than waiting a lifetime for the unlikely event of someone coming out with an inexpensive mass production model. I was fortunate that LifeLike came out with the N&W class Y and that the B’mann made the N&W class J in decent looking and running plastic at reasonable prices.
25 years ago, when I had most of my life still ahead of me, I refused to spend that kind of money on a discretionary purchase. It could wait. Now that I’m pushing 50 years old, I’m starting to feel that time is not on my side. Due to earlier life decisions, my income and liesure time have improved condiderably, but my patience has not. It’s high time I started enjoying some of the fruits of my labor. Now I’m considering an M4 to haul those empties back, also a cab forward and probably one of the C&O monsters. I love the big steam models!
I do not collect trains in the hope that they increase in value. I run them for hours on end and do my best to wear them out while enjoying the opportunity to operate the unique models of the machinery that I have always admired. If I ever sell any of my models, they won’t be “New in Box”[swg]
Bob
Another point with brass is weight! I want a critter, GE 25-ton. In H0 this is available from Grandt Line.
But how does this engine run??? So I’ve decided to build my own one, from brass sheet. This will be more than three times more heavy. And so it could run better. Well, there will be a lack of detail. I have to live with this.
Wolfgang