Why brass?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

Let me say right up front it is not my intention to start a flame war. I ask this question for my own curiosity. What is the appeal of brass locomotives and other equipment. I first discovered brass at my LHS about 40 years ago. They had a locked cabinet full of brass steam locos, some with price tags as high as $600. I recognized the outstanding detail these pieces had but I couldn’t understand why some would pay so much for a loco that wasn’t even painted. To this day, I still don’t understand that and now that DCC has become so popular, there’s the added burden of installing a decoder if you have a DCC layout. Are unpainted brass locos for collecting? Are they an investment? Do people run them unpainted or do they paint and letter them. Why buy brass as opposed to high end locos with DCC and factory sound already installed?

I do own one piece of brass, a 2-6-6-2 logging loco. It was part of an estate sale in which a bought the entire lot, selling off many of the pieces I didn’t need. That was about 40 years ago. That brass has seen very little use since. A few years ago I checked with my LHS and learned that particular loco is not very rare and the blue book value on it was only $150. More recently I looked into what it would take to have it professionally painted and equipped with a sound decoder and the cost was about 3 times what the unpainted loco is listed for. I’m not confident I could do a decent job of painting it myself and upgrading to DCC so it just sits there. I’ve run it a few times in DC mode and it does run quite smoothly although a little on the slow side which I guess is what would be expected of a logging loco. I just can’t convince myself it would be worth the cost to upgrade.

2

The main reason I buy brass is to get locomotives not offered any other way. I buy factory painted brass when available. I have painted a couple myself but don’t like to do it. All my brass have sound decoders I installed myself. Sometimes brass is less expensive than the plastic version of the same locomotive. Even after a sound decoder installation.

Pete.

3

likewise. i can’t find a realistic Reading B8, D4 or I5 in plastic

4

For a locomotive or piece of rolling stock which only appeals to a few potential buyers (and even few purchasers), the economics do not favour cutting tooling to mold it in plastic.

From a cost standpoint, making a limited number by hand in brass makes more sense for something which may sell in the low hundreds of units. When the numbers get into the multiple thousands, investing in tooling for injection molds begins to make sense.

5

For a long time, brass was the only way to get unique locomotives. For example, Santa Fe’s rebuilt F units, CF7s; were only available as a HO scale brass locomotive for years. RPP did a undecorated kit of the CF7; Athearn bought the CF7 tooling from RPP (along with other locomotives) and eventually produced a RTR CF7 model.

There are many other “only produced” in brass models. I just bought a 1050 class brass Santa Fe 2-6-2 because nothing like it has ever been produced in HO scale. My holy grail is a brass model of ATSF M122; a motorcar that ran out its last years in Texas. I believe that Hallmark imported a model years ago; I saw a model in an auction a few years back and did not pull the trigger. I still regret that indecision.

6

Yes but if you wanted to purchase a 2-6-6-2 brass articulated,could really find one for 150 bucks?Good luck with that!

7

I can only answer for myself. Keep in mind, I run DC, and have no intention of ever converting to DCC.

  1. Brass steam locomotives offer several advantages.

Consider a Sunset brass USRA Heavy Mikado vs. the same model from BLI. They sell for about the same price on the secondary lightly-used market.

The sunset model has a well-running Canon can motor, a very simple mechanism, and disassembles for service with only a few screws.

The BLI model has a difficult to service mechanism, fiddly electrical connectors, fragile details that break easily,and is difficult to disassemble.

-Photograph by Kevin Parson

  1. Many more models are available in brass.

I love my little logging 2-6-2 locomotive. Nothing like it has been made in plastic. If you model a specific road other than one of the real popular ones, you will need to buy brass to get the models you want.

Brass also offers lots of other nifty items that are well detailes and difficult to build.

-Photograph by Kevin Parson

  1. Freight cars.

I like well detailed freight cars. This means that the majority of my freight cars are from kits by Funaro & Camerlango, Westerfield, Sunshine, Yarmouth, Intermountain, Red Caboose, and Proto-2000.

I do not like assembling covered hoppers or tank cars. Also, these are very fragile when assembled. It is almost impossible for me to pick up a Kadee tank car without breaking something.

Brass tank cars and covered hoppers are very good models for me. Again, there is a ton of variety you won’t find anywhere else.

-Photograph by Kevin Parson

  1. Cabooses.

If you do not want cabooses that look like one of the popular plastic models, brass it is.

I have ten

8

John,

I will speak specificly to the question of why so much brass originally came unpainted.

Brass represented both more detail and very good running qualities in a time when the hobby was largely still “kit built”.

So, by offering them unpainted, prices could be kept lower and it was assumed that most modelers had the necessary tools and skills to paint them.

After all, the other locos on their layouts were die cast metal kits which also needed to be painted.

As time marched on, more and more brass was also offered factory painted.

I only own a few pieces of brass, and only have interest in a few others. One of my reasons for not owning more is that I am slow to buy things that are “used”, model locomotives and gasoline powered machines are among a group of things that I prefer to buy new.

I realize that a fair percentage of brass on the “secondary” market is effectively NOS, but, not being any sort of collector regarding model trains, I am not automaticly fascinated with brass.

There are a locos I would like for my operational scheme that will likely never be made in plastic - when I come across them at the right price…

Specificly a WESTERN MARYLAND K2 Pacific, and a couple of B&O B18 4-6-0’s.

Sheldon

9

My thoughts were mostly captured above - the brass locomotives I bought back in the late 70s and early 80s were of diesels owned by the Erie Lackawanna not available in plastic.

But I have bought quite a few brass cabooses of the Erie and DL&W built in either the Keyser Valley or Dunmore shops on frames of the old tenders. The cabooses of these roads really capture the character of railroad in my mind. Was lucky enough to have ridden in many of them, and they are worth the expense.

And if you are patient and set a limit on your spend - you can do okay at times on ebay.

10

Oops

Forgot to say that a brass EL C300 series bay window caboose looks great heading off into the distance!

But I’m biased

11

Brass isn’t always a panacea. I knew a guy in grad school who had a large SP collection and some of his brass engines didn’t run well at all. Just a thought, not a sermon.

12

Brass is a material thaat is easy to work with and to solder.

Start with the big peices and use a solder wirh a high melting point.

Major details are applied using a solder with a lower melting point so that you will not undo the first set of joints

The fine details are applied with a very low melting point, so that only theyu will be affected.

  1. LOOK at the solerting iron BEFORE you pick it up.

  2. Adjust your eyeglasswes before picking up the soldering iron

  3. Do not gert hot solder in your nicwe soft fur.

13

Very true, not all brass throughout the history of model trains have been great runners. Some of the duds just needed some love, some were real duds.

But many do run very nice and are very durable.

Sheldon

14

Very true. If you don’t like to tinker, brass is not for you. None of my brass is top of the line. Sunset, Overland, MB Austin and the like. Some needed an almost frame up rebuild and some just needed a cleaning and re lubrication. My latest (Sunset H6sb 2-8-0) ran great out of the box. I cleaned and lubricated it and replaced the flex tube with a NWSL universal joint, installed a WOW sound decoder and LED in the headlight. I also add weight to all my brass too. Something that may be difficult on a plastic locomotive. Brass is also easy to detail. My Westside K5s pacific was rudimentary at best. Working from photos of the prototype, I super detailed and painted it to represent the year before the stoker was installed. With help from a couple of fantastic modelers on the PRR pro site I was able to acquire the proper number plates and trust plates. It also runs great and sounds fantastic. I paid more for the decoder and speaker than the locomotive.

Pete.

15

Of course brass for many is a way to get models that aren’t offered in Plastic. I have personally avoided brass engines, much due to being simply very expensive, but what I have bought are mostly brass cabooses because no one has offered correct D&RGW cabooses in plastic and it is visually important to me to have correct cabooses. The key brass passenger car I sprung for is the Pullman Standard combine in order to have a mostly correct Rio Grande Zephyr.

16

Thanks for all the informative replies. When I first became acquainted with brass about 40 years ago, the price differential between brass and the RTR that major manufacterers were offering was dramatic and I didn’t understand why someone would pay so much more for an unpainted loco. I haven’t priced new brass lately but it doesn’t seem to me that there is as much of a price difference between brass locos and current high end locos with factory DCC and sound.

The comment that jumped out at me was the one that said brass is not for those who don’t want to tinker. That rules me out. It sounds to me that learning the skills necessary to work with brass could get quite expensive. I might someday try to tackle painting and upgrading to DCC the one brass loco I have. I say that knowing I run the risk of ruining it but it’s not doing me any good as is so I don’t really have much to lose.

17

My fear with spending that much on a loco is if it drops, that sound is me quitting the hobby (j/k). Seriously though, the cost and climbing the learning curve to upgrade from DC to DCC is certainly worth it. I too remain curious about the value of brass.

18

My 1st exposure to brass was the back cover of MR, PFM C&O power. Mike’s, Berk’s and Pacific’s. Elesco’s and flying pumps, the detail was impressive to me, and a far cry from Tyco and Mantua.

I don’t model the C&O, but do have an affinity for GN- belpair firebox’s and flying pumps. Only available in brass, unless you want a generic loco with a glacier park paint job.

Except for 3 engines, the rest are late 60’s/early 70’s Tenshodo’s. They are built like tanks, detailed enough to suit me, and run quite well for 50+ year old models. Except for my 2 articulated’s, $250.00 was max cost per each, within my budget, and most still have the factory paint. And they can handle relatively tight radius curves.

I like tinkering with them, and I do have spare gearboxes, motors, etc, in case they’re needed, and I am learning the fine art of masking for multiple color paint jobs! It can be a rabbit hole at times however!

I view my brass, both painted and unpainted, as runners, definitely not as an investment, and I will make mods/upgrades as required. The great thing about painting brass- it’s easy to strip and try again! My 1st one is on it’s 2nd paint job, and will likely be shopped again, since I had never used an airbrush before and am still learning. Oh, and I run dc.

As far as your 2-6-6-2? Your investment in upgrading is usually directly proportional to your emotional attachment to it. If it means a lot, keep it and maybe one day, otherwise sell it, trade it for whatever you do want, brass or not.

Clear as mud! Kevin

19

  1. I have a logging line and plastic logging locos are limited in offerings, especially with respect to gear engines. The Rivarossi Heisler is the exception (a great little engine).

  2. I also like brass for the details. While there are good-running steam engines available in plastic, many have molded-on details that I cannot stand anymore.

  3. I like the feel and sturdiness of metal details. Plastic details get bent and end-up looking toylike.

But I won’t buy brass whithout trying them out first, or with a solid statement by the seller that the engine runs smoothly.

Simon

20

On a different tack, since we are talking about brass - how about a few comparisons between brass and plastic?

Can you tell which is brass and which is plastic? (you guys that know the HO world well shouldn’t have any problem).

Next part of the question: Which are the better detailed models?

Extra credit: which ones run the best?

riceburg.jpg

Exhibit A: 3 truck shay

new-shay.jpg

Exhibit B: 2 truck shay