No you end up living in Upstate NY where the taxpayers put up with it without any lubrifications and no vote for the authritys that are apointed by downstate polticos,
If some of the McKinney ave tracks were already in place the very high cost of utility relocations may have been avoided. Also as a younger city Dallas may have a better idea of what utilities go under those tracks. Also most utilities under the tracks may have been there second. A contrary example is the Atlanta street car where as many as 13 separate utility lines per block go under the proposed & built tracks. If these utilities were not hardened under the Atlanta tracks any breakdown of any utility under the ROW would be blamed on the street car and the streetcar would have to pay & pay So what happens when the subgrade on McKinney deteriorates due to heavier equipment ? Unscheduled shutdowns while utility companys pay to repair ? It may be a question of pay now or pay more later on new ROW ? Now all rail ROW has hardened utilities underneath.
Class 1 and most other RRs strictly enforce these rules that any utility be hardened under their ROWs. As well on our state highways the state DOT enforces it as well
Cheap? You want cheap?
http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/the-trainavan-part-1-series-17-episode-4-
Utility relocaton is a major cost in streetcar construction, often half the cost.
Firelock, thanks for the Mike Royko reference! He was the Man! Not to get off topic, but I recall what he said about the Chicago Democratic convention in 68- " Some journalists got beaten by the cops but they were from New York and Washington so they had it coming." Priceless!
Yes, what the hell has happened? There was discussion by politicos here in Toronto about tearing down a portion of the Gardiner expressway. After lots of study, the vote gets punted to next year. Then, likely another study. The way it’s going, the thing will fall down on its own.
I have been screaming at the moon here in LA that building subways makes no dam sense here when we still have 90% of the old ROWs for the Pacific Electric intact or at least still reasonably accessible, even if we had to elevate or redirect parts of the routes its still 30-40% the costs and 3 -4 time faster to build then a subway. It takes years for surface lines to get built but it takes DECADES for subways to get built.
We dont have the weather issues or the building congestion (90% of the LA basin is only 2-3 stories tall) like Manhattan that help justify going underground. Its just NIMBYism and shear madness that drive the subway program. Build it above ground and build it now, because every year you wait, it only gets more expensive, prices NEVER go down.
Vsmith::
The old PE ROW may still be there but the problem of utilities running underneath that line is still there. Do you have access to California law as to who would have to pay for their relocation or hardening under this ROW ? It could be different for when the utilities were installed ?
It’s difficult for me to imagine how taking care of possible utilities for a surface or elevated line could be more expensive than for a subway.
What is required to relocate and harden utilities for transportation projects would amaze you.
Most subways ‘dodge’ the problem by tunneling their line beneath all the utility rights of ways.
That’s news to me. I thought most subway construction was cut and cover, in other words they dig a trench, and so have to handle the utilities, then cover up the trench they just dug.
Please give me some documentation of how many subways you know of that tunneled without disturbing what’s above them, vs the cut and cover method.
Most modern subways, such as the 7 Subway Extension to Hudson Yards and the Second Avenue Subway are TBM drilled. Most subway construction is cut and cover, however, most subway construction occurred before 1980.
Thank you. I haven’t been paying too much attention to modern subway construction techniques, living as I do in the Philadelphia area, where I’m pretty sure the short stretch under the Schuylkill River is the only non cut and cover portion.
Is deep bore cheaper than cut and cover, or elevated or surface? It looks like Vsmith started this line of thought
“even if we had to elevate or redirect parts of the routes its still 30-40% the costs and 3 -4 time faster to build then a subway”
blue streak 1 said
“the problem of utilities running underneath that line is still there. … who would have to pay for their relocation or hardening under this ROW”
I questioned “how taking care of possible utilities for a surface or elevated line could be more expensive than for a subway”
I get the impression BaltACD thinks deep bore is cheaper than elevated or surface, otherwise why would he say it represented ‘dodging’ the problem, or perhaps he meant they throw money at the problem to ‘dodge’ it, which kind of misses the point I think vsmith’s trying to make
A lot depends on nature of the soil and ground in general as to what type of subway construciton is least expensive. One example would be a built-up area where the desire is for a direct subway line to go diaganaly with respect to the street grid, and underneath all the buildings is hard rock. Deep bore is the only solution. But note that deep stations require elevators as well as escalators, all with their maintenance, adding costs. The other extreme would be a subway under a wide boulevard where disruption of two or three or four lanes can be tolerated and the soil is soft or clay.
But subway construction ALWAYS costs between four and ten time the cost of a street-based streetcar line, even with massive utility relocation.
New York’s original IRT subway was mostly cut-and-cover. But 145th - Dykman-200th Street was bored, and this 1904-1906.
In Chicago, the State Street subway was tunneled by deep-bore in 1942, with perhaps some cut-and-cover work where it connected with the L. The steeple of Holy Name Cathedral has a slight but visible lean to the southwest that apparently occured when the subway was tunneled.
I believe that the Dearborn Subway (Congress-Milwaukee line) was also tunneled by deep-bore.
Harry Christensen Trolley Trails of Greater Cleveland Pubished in the 1970s has a picture of a temp portable run around track for utlity work. This was done this was for 60 years whats the problem
Google Books covers this very topic in 1911
Proceedings of the American Electric Railway Engineering Association, Volume 9
By American Electric Railway Engineering Association. Convention
IIRC, the Chicago subways were bored through blue clay, which is much easier to cut through than hard rock. It also had the advantage of being reasonably water tight, so no air was needed to keep water out.
- Erik
j
Not cheaper - just a different set of challenges - One tends to forget all the ‘utilities’ that exist in near proximity to routes that are above ground and must be rerouted and secured against the operation of the transportation medium. And the owners of the utilities must coordinate their own actions with all the owners of the other utilities.
Among the utilities that must be accounted for - Water, Storm Sewer, Waste Water Sewer, Electric, Telephone, Steam Lines - and probably half a dozen other things I can’t comprehend - all owned by different entities and all with their own operating parameters that must be protected and accounted for in allowing todays usage as well as planning for tomorrows usage.