The Doctor Is In !!! I see I opened a “Large Kettle Of Fish” with this one. I may have not stated my point, which happens in the wee hours when I am on line. I guess it’s me, I was brought up on Lionel and the road names were not the ones I saw in SoCal. Don’t get me wrong, I love the cars that are “different” It’s just that I want items in the paint scheme and types that I saw. I am leaning toward SP and some makers don’t make what I want in diesels, ie; early black widow Geep’s , F-units and such. I am willing to do repaints. In fact, I bought a repainted MPC Geep in SP black widow scheme. And as I said before, my F-units and alco’s are not in proper paint but it’s my pike so it’s no biggie. I just want to be able to buy loco’s that my home road used in the right paint because I don’t feel I can do a good repaint/decal job. I am going to look for a person to do the job for me and solve that problem. Of course, If you look, everything has been done on the full size railroads.
Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble Yet Strangly Evil (somewhat befuddled in the wee hours) Doctor !!![|)][}:)]
I imagine that just about everyone wants items specific to their interests, but it’s simply not possible for the various manufacturers to be all things to all people. There are or were a great many railroads in this country alone, and each of those railroads used equipment specific to their purposes (moving people and certain types of goods from point A to point B at the lowest possible cost). No one manufacturer, or even group of manufacturers, could posslby meet all the expectations of a hobbyist who is interested in one particular road, given that the prototype roads themselves were so diverse in terms of what they operated.
But most of all, the manufacturers have to focus on what sells for them. Some roadnames are more popular than others, and have a larger following in the hobby, so it stands to reason that the majority of products are going to be made to represent those roads.
Lots of other roadnames ,
of rail lines that dont even exsist.
Modelers make up thier own roadnames.
name a few,V&O,G&D.ES&D , Lakeside Lines and the most famous
Lionel Lines.
getting back to the question, It Sells.
market driven.
BTW Dave, as I’ve said before and I hope you didn’t misread me - the more the merrier!
I agree that NO segment of the hobby should be put down, be it a scale prototype scale modeler, a traditional tin modeler or a typical tabletop modeler.
The reason I stopped posting as much on the OGR forum was because of a number of putdowns that had been made on 027 modelers. Granted, these kinds of comments represent the foolishness of only a few people, but as with going to a bar after work - you go where you feel welcome. And whether Miller is better than Budweiser is really a matter of personal taste - as it is with the different aspects of this hobby if the truth were told.
I think there are several reasons the scale end of the hobby gets a bit more attention:
-It’s a new thing that hasn’t been done so much before. And as with many products, top line items tend to command the most public attention even if the actual sales are different.
-The train companies have been gunning for each other for years. The animosity and the competition have certainly played a role here in outdoing the others or the offering of more detailed products than the next guy.
-The train forums… unfortunately the kid or adult who has just entered the hobby is not probably going to be voicing opinions on a train forum as much as seasoned modelers. Of course these unseasoned modelers are probably not going to be as demanding either.
While there is obviously a market for scale proportioned and detailed trains, there is also a market for inexpensive, traditionally sized or 027 sized trains. I don’t think one makes the other right or wrong, and so it should be that way with the people who purchase the trains.
The modelers who can afford to spend thousands on trains and have “stadium” sized layouts should consider themselves blessed and fortunate and be thankful. The world is full of the less fortunate.
And while it may not be their cup of tea, the g
The reason I stopped posting as much on the OGR forum was because of a number of putdowns that had been made on 027 modelers.
Why let other people decide where you post? O-27 trains are a part of this hobby. I’ve looked at some of those Scale O-Gauge engines and wondered how may people really own their own Bowling Alley to run them in. Postwar Trains that needed it were shipped with replacement blades to run on both O and O-27… There’s as much historical significance to O-27 as O-gauge. Don’t let these folks who have some internal issues get to you.
The world is not filled with rivet counters. toy trains forever!
One thing that I have learned while working in the marketing departments of a couple of model railroad manufacturers is that you can’t possibly please all of the people all of the time!
Some model railroaders rant and rave about wanting more detail. When you provide more detail they complain that the model is too fragile!
Some model railroaders blast manufacturers for not producing “The most famous locomotive to ever grace the rails”. When you put that locomotive in your upcoming catalog and get 5 orders for it nationwide they can’t understand how you could possibly cancel such a popular piece!
Believe it or not a manufacturer must sell a certain amount of pieces from a tool to cover the cost of manufacturing it. If this means putting every popular roadname on it -well…
In other words - In order to keep cutting new tools for new products you’ve got to keep selling the existing ones.
Isn’t it limiting one’s sales potential to produce a loco or piece of rolling stock that was specific to one railroad and expect it to keep selling year after year? I think not.
I could go on and on.
I guess for the same reason people spend so much time and money in an attempt to make their layout look as realistic as possible, then run their trains on track with a non-prototypical middle rail.
As has been said, they’re TOYS.
How about making real trains look more like toy traims?
I remember when I was a locomotive engineer for Union Pacific Railroad and we got put away for hours on end in some siding between terminals for meets or because there was no room for us in the yard at our off duty terminal, ( Well, an idle mind is a mischievous mind ) So, to pass away the time, I would put on my gloves and get a moistened paper towel and go out on the locomotive walkway and draw Lionel logos on the locomotive’s long hood. You could do this because the locomotives were always so dirty that you could write on the locomotive by rubbing away the dirt. This was a sort of non-destructive tagging of the locomotive that, if the company found offensive, could simply remove merely by washing the locomotive. Not only would I put Lionel logos on the engines but I would write “Lionel Lines” underneath “Union Pacific”. Surprisingly, Lionel Corporation never did, to my knowledge at least, contact the U.P. with regards to the unauthorized use of their trade name … Hmm!, go figure.
No, it doesn’t really bother me if toy train manufacturers takes liberties with prorotypical accuracy. Whimsy plays a pretty important part in the minds of toy train collectors and operators. Many toy train enthusiasts want trains that remind them of the trains they had while growing up and those toy trains were far from accurate scaling.
There certainly is room for both scale and toy trains in this wonderful hobby of ours and luckily, there are manufacturers providing products to advocates both scale and toy trains. The bottom line is that one receives satisfaction from one’s hobby regardless of the level of accuracy. I appreciate toy layouts and Hi - Rail set ups. I personally plan to purchase Lionel’s Alien Suspension car due to be shipped later this year. I have a 1:48 th scale model of the flying saucer Bob Lazar purportedly did reverse engineering on while employed at Area 51. I’ll park the saucer outside my Plasticville Airport
bogaziddy,
I would love to have seen that engine of yours. Now a days, I see more graffite on trains then ever before.
By the way, the alien train is one of my favorites. I’ve collected all the pieces so far so I might as well collect the rest.
TomS
See, I straddle that fence (ouch, watch the splinters) being both a toy train operator and a 2 rail scale O modeler.
Did the B&O ever have PA-1s? No. Did I buy a pair from Jerry Williams? You betcha! They look beautiful. Would I convert them to 2 rail so I could run them on my 2 rail layout? Again no. Why? Beacuse in 2 rail, I model Chessie in the 70s, and they would sure look out of place.
The toy train hobby is vastly different than the scale hobby. In 2 rail, I have to scratchbuild almost everything that I want for structures and scenery (although it has gotten easier recently as far as scale sized structures and trees go) where in the toy layout, I can get almost any kind of plasticville building that my heart desires. I can run Flyer with Lionel with Marx, with MTH, and the world is good. Plus, ever try to get an 86 foot HyCube boxcar to go around 031 curves?
(I have, it went, but looked so stupid it was actually funny)
I model for my own pleasure, I run Toy Trains for the pure joy of smelling the SP smoke, the clank of Milk Cans from a Milk Car, ot the THWACK of the Brakeman car guy doing a face plant on the top of a car.
Two different worlds.
Both are fun in their own way.
Doctor,
Focusing my speculations on the examples you provided -
Williams N5C cabooses in almost every railroad name. I agree with those who suggest die amortization. Paint masks are cheap compared to the body molds. Mold as many bodies as possible and decorate them in all the road names that have a chance of selling.
Williams F7 in Daylight scheme. Ever since he started reproducing Lionel prewar pieces, Jerry Williams has been a student of Lionel’s production. In the case of the F7, I suspect he was considering Lionel’s extremely popular 8260/62 F3 A-A’s from 1982-83. This set was relatively rare, and Williams may have figured there still was significant demand for a cab-unit set in the Daylight scheme. Did he also produce a B-unit? The Lionel SP Daylight F3 dummy B-unit is so rare it’s valued at more than the A-A combination.
K-Line ALCo in SP Black Widow paint. Hard to guess on this one. Black Widow graphics less expensive than Daylight graphics? Even in it’s early days. K-Line seemed to do pretty good with their decoration. BW scheme not done before?
I recently got a Lionel C&NW RS-3 with very nice graphics, especially considering RS-3’s are Lionel’s cheapest locos. The nit-pick is that the loco’s number is 198, a number never used by the C&NW for any type of its locos. I’ve got a reference book showing a picture of a picture of C&NW RS-3 1503 that is a good match to the Lionel except for the number. Could four numbers cost that much more than three? Lionel has researchers to check on that stuff - why not use the right number? Ah, well, it’s just a toy…
Thank you very much Jack. I have said in other words much of what you elaborated on. But it is very nice to read the points being made from someone in the first person position of knowing.
It is hardly rocket science really. What does amaze me is that modelers who are otherwise intellligent, chances are with a college degree, and yet cannot understand the simple business point of not being able to financially justify making every odd ball piece and idea that comes along. And making it at such a detail level that the price point keeps it out of the hands of the masses.
It seems to be a tough pill for some to swallow but the numbers I see consistantly show that the majority of 3-rail modelers are traditionally sized non command operators with table top sized layouts.
Aside from the well known legal/integrity/theft problems K-Line brought upon themselves, go though the last several years of catalogs and count all the new pieces derived from new tooling. Then go through the magazines and count those same pieces being advertised as blowouts. The lesson is clear, and for K-Line, unfortunately profound.
F&G is right. To save money on tooling. Plus they are made to be toys. If you want scale models that are near prototypically correct, buy Atlas O or imported brass and don’t whine about the prices.
Here’s something to think about.
There is a train called the Glacier Express that runs through the Swiss Alps. The passenger cars on this train are a wonderful blue. The Locomotives that pull the train have always been painted green. A while back LGB decided to take some license and paint one of these locos blue to match the coaches.
All of the “purists” out there complained that it was horrible because it wasn’t prototypical. The model sold out - quickly I might add. The railroad liked it so much that they recently painted the actual locomotive blue and put LGB logos on it!
Go figure!
I fully agree with Dr. Fu-Manchue. These trains that we’re dealing here with are not cheap (at lease not the ones I’m buying). That’s why Lionel and MTH, etc go to to great lenths to make the Locos and cars very detail on every thing. So I want a perfect engine when I get one. Take a look at the N scale trains or HO gauge! It better come out perfect in every way including the pain schemes or thier customers WILL complain.
But then…it depends what certain people will settle for.
doggieday
Lionel Lines ran in every corner of this country, and a good deal of Canada as well.
Jim
This happens all the time on the scale side too. Especially with steam locomotives. Every road seems to have a different version of each steam locomotive type - in fact most large roads had multiple versions, i.e the famous PRR K4 - there was a K1, K2, K3, and even a K5. Manufacturers can’t afford to produce every variation. Only small runs of brass locomotives avoid this issue, but you pay for it in higher prices.
Enjoy
Paul
Simple reason, they are fun! Another simple reason, they sell and make money! Simplest reason of all, there are people that work or own companies that produce toy trains and they turn that stuff out because they know that somewhere there is a rivet counter that will go nuts when he/she sees it advertised or finds it in a train store! Good for lots of laughs at work!
Mark Twain once said something to the effect that working on a riverboat takes all the fun out of riverboating, meaning that instead of enjoying the passing scenery, it’s all business, checking water depth, charts, etc etc.
I think one reason I’ve not been too fussy (although somewhat more than DCmontana[:D]) is b/c I don’t really know that much about how the prototype is supposed to look. Well, I CAN tell a GG-1 apart from a Sharknose and I can even differentiate an F-3 from an FT, but there are just far too many variations of trains that I don’t have the time nor the inclination to study each modification, revision, custom- or trick-job; and believe me, there are many.
Take a lowly GP38-2. There are so many different styles to those alone as to be bewildering.
I suppose that if I were the engineer on one, I’d want it to pretty much look the way I knew it.
But since I’m not, I can be satisfied with a fairly close representation. I try to avoid purchasing models that didn’t exist in particular roadnames by searching online or asking questions.
The other thing you can always do is modify or kitba***he item you like.
Actually, the poster of this post writes: “Why do toy train companies make non-prototype Loco’s and rolling stock?”
Sir,
I’ve seen fantasy schemes in HO too! Quite a number, actually.
And, among the rivet counters, there are the free lancers, whose entire fleet is a fantasy scheme.
Soooo, I don’t think there’s really a simple answer here.