“The government has no business in the social engineering business. It exists to protect our rights, and to protect our nation. Period.”
Totally disagree. Business will not do it, not cost effective, no return. They would probably plan only for themselves and let all else happen by accident. Chaos would probably be in effect. Would a factory in New Jersey build a road to their resources in Pennsylvania and another one to their market in Indiana? Of course not. Would the Association of Capitalist Industries build it? Not worth the investment. But the US Constitution does say the US Government is in charge of regulating interstate commerce. Would a trucking company have built the NJ turnpike or Route 80 or the PA Turnpike? Who would have built the GW Bridge or dug the Holland and LIncoln tunnels? Libertarianism has some merit, yes, but ignores the realities of everyday living.
All the RRs in the north American market are having to put every available dollar into capacity improvements. They really do not have any excess capital to put into long range improvements such as electrification when the short term is now very important. It may be more oil trains, Faster passenger and more faster intermodal trains eat up fluidity and capacity when going around slower manifests and other trains. ,
This poster suspects that even BNSF does not have unlimited resources. BNSF may even have to postpone some projects on the southern Transcon and other locations to concentrate during this coming summer for the Baken oil traffic. That will be a big gamble due to the uncertainty of future oil by train.
Forecasts for future rail traffic increases by the FEDS may take all available retained capital to keep up with needed improvements ? That may be for at least another 15 years ?
It may be that the RRs will not have enough capital to just meet these short term needs. There may be a need for Federal help to meet these needs and maybe some long range electrification projects. This poster really suspects that will happen but who knows.? Is it OK to build the short term freight improvements but not electrification.
Another item – if there is a turn down in traffic the short termers will demand more dividends & less capital improvements instead of getting ahead of future demand. The BNSF Transcon improvements is a perfect example.
Thank you Mac, you impresario of omnipotence, etc. Since you do know it all, please explain, without political overtones, what Capitalism is and how it operates. Then explain to us its position today based on both politics and your interpretation. And, while you’re at it, explain why many are calling for us to get out of capitalism or find ways to adjust capitalism so that it works for the US. I evidently don’t understand it by what I’ve read on line, in the newspapers, talking to bankers and businessmen, and following the Nightly Business Report, for instance. So I will ignore all of them and just use your answer to guide me forever.
NO NO The catenary is just higher. In fact, some western railroads in improving clearances and raissing tunnel roofs have even planned for it! Just in case!
Case in point: Double stacks pass under METRA’s IC suburban cat at Kensington regularly, or did.
Henry, government people are just as likely to make mistakes as business people. And can be just as self-serving and selfish and cruel. Sometimes they are cruel when putting on an act of being just.
Remember that the Nazi party was for National SOCIALISM.
Did any of the freight railroads make the terrible mistake that NJT made for Sandy?
Sure some Government controls make sense. But not total management of industries (including, to me, health care). I happen to favor government expenditures for education, health, national defense, and even long-distance trains and national parks. But I would let free enterprise largely determine where freight transportation investments should be made. You have a right to disagree, of course
I totally agree with capitalism. But I am one who believes that right now that capitalism is cannibalistic in that it is totally immersed in quick returns on investments, no long range planning, that taking care of people (health and wealth) helps them make more money in the long run (but they don’t believe in “long run”), and have an attitude that the next set of investors will have to handle whatever is handed them. The so called Robber Barons of yesteryear built companies, built factories, invented and produced for the people, were in business to do business and not just save money so that their personal coffers could be filled. Oh, I know there were scoundrels, there was profit taking, there was stockholders getting theirs while the property went to hell and times the stockholders were ignored while track and equipment and people were renewed. or taken care of. But today’s investors have been more insistent for a longer time about getting their ROI and I for one think it has to stop so that the US industries (including rail), the US economy, and the American people have a society and country of the calibre and quality we can live comfortably and prosper as we have in the past. In the US capitalists and the government have worked together to make it happen…public projects that provide transportation, water, electricity, and services which allow businesses to perform and prosper and people to have jobs and quality of life. It has swung on and off center over the years and is due to come back toward center again. NY is saying right now “come start your business here and don’t pay taxes” while local communities have to provide electricity, water, roads, electricity, and no property taxes in order to lure business. Is that capitalism or socialism? Does it work? For who? Don’t give me lectures about capitalism from political points of view. But do tell me how it works. I ask does it work?
Quite correct. The other projects mentioned earlier will provide a faster ROI. That IMHO is why so much of our infrastructure is slowly falling apart. There has to be a better solution ?
The class I freight carriers are in their best shape in decades and is certainly NOT falling apart. The news seems to be saying that highways are falling apart due to 'too low" taxes.
What infrastructure do you believe is falling apart?
According to whom? You? I am a professional economist, but anyone with any basic understanding of economics or who has ever turned many pages of someone like Adam Smith (or John Locke), understands the basic untruthfulness of your statement. Here is Smith:
"PART III. Of the Expence of Public Works and Public Institutions
THE THIRD and last duty of the sovereign or commonwealth is that of erecting and maintaining those public institutions and those public works, which, though they may be in the highest degree advantageous to a great society, are, however, of such a nature, that the profit could never repay the expence to any individual or small number of individuals, and which it therefore cannot be expected that any individual or small number of individuals should erect or maintain. The performance of this duty requires too very different degrees of expence in the different periods of society…THAT the erection and maintenance of the public works which facilitate the commerce of any country, such as good roads, bridges, navigable canals, harbours, &c. must require very different degre
Henry understands “freedom” much better than you do, you are emphasizing only negative, juridical freedom (“freedom from”) at the expense of positive freedom, the ability to make things happen, which requires access to resources. Without the latter we are free all right, free to starve.
I agree that RRs are in the best shape in years but more needs doing Lets see — Portal bridge, B&P tunnel, Various bridges on the NEC, NS’s bridge in Pa, Several bridges over the OHIO, Mississippi, & Missouri rivers. going away from RRs ---------- Interstate roads ( some ) and bridges – I-35, I-5 north of Seattle, Louisville nearly lost one ? Several road tunnels around country constantly leak , Local streets and bridges ( ATL still has some iron bridges ) Water lines - Many of the older cities still have lead joint cast iron pipes that fail constantly and even some wooden water lines in city like Baltimore. Many water systems are not earthquake hardened in prone areas, Water treatment plants. Sewer systems piping in many places use clay pipes. Sewer treatment plants overburdened and have many discharges if part of plant fails. Many cities have combined storm and sanitary sewer systems that heavy rains cause raw sewerage discharges when it rains or snows. Natural gas lines especially local distribution systems leak especially when pressure is i
May I respectfully point out that this thread started because of a question, and that question has been answered serveral times. What we have now is a different question: What kind of economic system or mixture of economic systems is best for the USA (and Canada?)? I really question whether such a thread belongs on this Forum. Granted, it does affect the kind of investments in railroads that will be made, but it affects just about everything else too!
I am not aware of freight railroad bridge issues in terms of structural defecieny. There may be capacity issues but in Memphis, which I live not far from, there are two bridges carrying three main tracks which seems to be more than sufficient in terms of capacity.
Everything else you cite is government owned. It looks to me like Henry’s short sighted capitalists are more future oriented than the government.
Dwight,
Thank you for that classic passage from Adam Smith, written about 1776 IIRC and true on its face at the time, which was the begining, or even before the begining of the industrial revolution with its attendant creation and accumulation of liquid private capital. The American railroads, as an industry, and as an institution, proved themselves quite capable of providing inland transportation until throttled by redistributionalist government.
Many of those functions Smith correctly stated could be performed only by the soverign, because only he had the resources, could be provided by private enterprise today. You might want to look at the history of the early state railroads for an example of government incompetence in the internal improvements game. We know how to voluntarily mobilize capital in ways that Adam Smith could not imagine. My preference for private action as compared to government is based on the generaly superior results of private action AND the lesser compulsion associated with private action as compared to government.
The railroads are in the best shape ever. And in good capitalist style they are building and rebuilding and preparing for their futures. But they also have asked for government help in several instances. NS, for instance helping ease truck traffic on I80 in Virginia by increasing rail capacity. However, as shown by the English group who wanted CSX to stop putting money into rebuilding and reequipping and pay investors more instead, businesses, especially in this discussion, railroads have to be careful and not project too far into the future in fear of stockholder revolts. So, do you want a railroad in 2050 or a bank account in the Caymans? That appears to be the American Capitalist’s dilemma, the question that has to be asked and answered. Daily.
As a mere observer, I can only say that our resident professional economist and retired journalist are on the right track!! [pun intended] [:P] Familiarity with empiricism and academic history is also helpful in a rational discussion that doesn’t revert to sound bites from radio heads and ideological “think” tanks.