Why have manufacturers abandoned anybody modeling before WW1? It seems unless you are narrow gauge, the model railroad suppliers think railroads were invented in 1945. The first 75 years of railroad history is completely ignored.
How many manufacturers make a reasonable quality (at least as good as an Accurail or Athearn) pre WW1 car in R-T-R or plastic kit? One, MDC and then only 2 or 3 body styles. Westerfield and LaBelle offer craftsman kits that can be used for post 1900 layout.
How many manufactures make a good running 1890-1910 era engine? One. The IHC NYO&W camelback 2-6-0, about as obscure a choice for an engine as can be had. There are several that can be backdated and several out of production models can be tuned up, but nothing is available off the shelf. Think about it. F units were only in production from 1939 to about 1959. 20 years. And we have literally dozens upon dozens of variations of F units from every concievable manufacturer. Yet an entire nation’s production for 75 years is more or less ignored. We have at least 5 versions of USRA 2-8-2’s, two or three versions of USRA 4-6-2’s. Only one manufacturer makes a decent 2-8-0 and that, along with the 4-4-0, were the most common engines ever built. Instead we have models of 4-6-6-4’s, streamlined 4-8-4’s, etc. All of which were only every used on maybe 5% of the US railroad system by a handfull of railroads. The entire, all time production of those engines probably wouldn’t equal one month’s production of 4-4-0’s, 4-6-0’s and 2-8-0’s in late 1800’s.
As far as I can tell, a switch engine from any time prior to WW1 (other than the out of production Mantua camelbacks) has never been made. Never.
Its like as if model airplane manufacturers decided that they would just never make another biplane or ship model makers decided that they would never make another sailing ship.
Its a small market now of course, the only way to model it is to scratchbuild or kitbash everyt
It would be too much of a niche market and sales would not pay for the design and production costs. I have a set of Civil War era cars that were made by IHC, and USRA designs came about during the War to End All Wars, so in a way we do have post-WWI era models, but nothing between the Civil War and WWI. The USRA was formed in 1917, when the US entered World War I, and there are still many USRA models being made, particularly of steam locomotives.
agree 100% . i’m planing a 1900-1905 era layout and loco’s and rolling stock aren’t easy to come by . thank bachmann for their 4-6-0 as that’s the most common loco used by my prototype (Santa Fe , Prescott and Phoenix . became part of ATSF in 1903 ) . i’ll probably get a couple of their 2-8-0s as well since other railroads in the area used them . i think i can do a convincing conversion by adding a diamond stack and a big cow-catcher type pilot to the 4-6-0s . craftsman kits will provide most of the rolling stock , kitbashing and scratchbuilding will be required for some items like water cars .
That is correct, Jeff. Let’s face it, this hobby is deeply rooted in nostalgia. Any one person’s ability to enjoy the nostalgia is anchored in their past, a personal experience. As fewer modelers buy fewer models of that era, it becomes increasingly less profitable to manufacture them. Bottom line - the business case.
jeffschultz said:
“Because they realize that people tend to model eras related to when they grew up or reached adulthood.”
I don’t buy that. Steam engines stopped operating generally about 1956. Assuming “adulthood” means 18, that would mean that only 65+ year olds liked steam engines. There have been a dozen new steam models released in the last couple years, the manufacturers seem to think they have a market there.
Probably 50% of modelers NEVER saw a F unit in regular freight service. But there are a gazillion F units out there.
cacole said:
“It would be too much of a niche market and sales would not pay for the design and production costs.”
I also don’t buy that. Look at the steam locos that have been offered in the last several years.
PRR 2-10-4 : there were only 125 EVER built and they were used by only ONE railroad and only on a small part of their system.
UP 4-8-8-4 : There were less than 30 EVER built and they were used by only ONE railroad and were only used on a small part of their system. They lasted for less than 20 years in service.
4-6-6-4: There were less than 100 built for three railroads. They lasted for less than 20 years in service.
2-6-6-4: There were less than 100 built for one railroad.
Talk about your niche markets. Except for the 2-10-4, NONE of those chassis are useable under another design boiler shell, they were all unique wheel arrangements used just once. Yet those were all considered to be valid “business cases”. Making a good quality small 2-8-0 that was used by virtually every railroad in the US for decades is a bad business case? That’s like saying it would be a bad bet to make a GP-7.
cacole said:
“I have a set of Civil War era cars that were made by IHC, and USRA designs came about during the War to End All Wars, so in a way we do have post-WWI era models, but nothing between the Civil War and WWI.”
When Athearn gets more of the ex-MDC stuff back in production, there should be more equipment available.
MDC had a 2-8-0, 2-6-0 and 4-4-0 which would be perfect for a pre-WWI layout (not to mention the Shay, which Bachmann also has).
MDC had a pretty full line of old time freight cars (box, tank, reefer, caboose - which pretty much covers it except for gons and flats) and also had some nice 80’ passenger cars from the turn of the century, not to mention the 1870/1880’s passenger cars.
The Spectrum 4-6-0 can be backdated by removing the Walschaert valve gear. The undec version also comes with 2 different cabs IIRC (1 wood). Go to the Bachmann site, go to Ask The Bach-Man and click on the picture gallery at the top of the page. The picture of V&T #27 is on page 14 of the gallery. For some reason, I can’t give you a direct link. Start at: http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/
You might want to go to http://markschutzer.com/index.htm and look at the superb job he did detailing an MDC 2-8-0 to resemble SP #2500 as it appeared around 1915. Go down to the picture marked “MDC Old TIme Consolidation”.
Model Power also offers an old time 2-8-0 and 4-6-0.
Mantua used to make a kit for a 4-8-0. Occasionally you can find one on Ebay. Currently, there are 3 for sale. Who knows? Maybe Model Power will re-release the engine.
If you want to model the pre-WWI period, you’re going to have to “make do” with craftsman kits. There’s just not the same kind of market as for later periods.
Ah but Dave, look at the HUGE popularity of the WWII era - how many movies now, and computer games, and everything else. That era has been so in the forefront over the past 5 years or so that practically EVERYONE knows something about it. So I think that’s skewing the statistics a bit. Otherwise, the idea of the average modeller modelling their childhood is about right on. I’m a few years early, I wasn’t born in 1956, but I REALLY dislike the green and yellow.
Take a look at the old magazines from the 50’s - LOTS of people then doing turn of the century stuff. Look at all those old Binkley and Central Valley kits - all turn of the century stuff! Now to duplicate stuff like that you have people like Craig Bisgeier making custom resin molds so he can get the freight cars he needs.
Point of information. The Mantua 4-8-0 and 4-6-0 oldtime locomotives (the former also referred to as the “Hooterville Cannonball”) are both decidedly out of scale. They were actually designed as OO scale locomotives. Late 19th century and turn-of-the-century locomotives were physically quite small and even today it’s difficult to produce a really good running example of these engines in HO scale because of the necessary small size of the motor/flywheel. To really see a contrast, compare one of the late Mantuas with their 1940’s Belle of the 80’s American or Eight-Ball Mogul to see the true size difference.
In the late 1950’s through the 1960’s quite a number of 1880’s-1900’s HO locomotives were produced in brass - and surprising number even in Zamac (see Aristo-Craft, et al.) - but all were poor runners. Some tender-drive examples were tried but they weren’t altogether successful either. I think the manufacturers learned their lesson from that and have rarely ventured back to those engines.
I don’t buy that. Steam engines stopped operating generally about 1956. Assuming “adulthood” means 18, that would mean that only 65+ year olds liked steam engines. There have been a dozen new steam models released in the last couple years, the manufacturers seem to think they have a market there.
You forget. The marketers go after the money and people over 50 are generally more affluent than those who are younger. We also generally had toy trains as kids. That’s not all that common now. We have more money to spend on the hobby and we often buy more than one copy of the same locomotive. And you don’t need to be 65+ to remember steam in regular service. Trust me on this. When you’re 5 years old, a D&RGW C-48 standard gauge 2-8-0 makes a BIG impression as does a GS-4 powered Daylight when you’re 8. Then there are those cab-forward helpers in Tehachapi.
Let me go back to your original question: Why have manufacturers abandoned anybody modeling before WW1? It seems unless you are narrow gauge, the model railroad suppliers think railroads were invented in 1945. The first 75 years of railroad history is completely ignored.
How many manufacturers make a reasonable quality (at least as good as an Accurail or Athearn) pre WW1 car in R-T-R or plastic kit? One, MDC and then only 2 or 3 body styles. Westerfield and LaBelle offer craftsman kits that can be used for post 1900 layout.
The manufacturers haven’t “abandoned” the pre-WWI market because it wasn’t really there to begin with. As for narrow gauge, most narrow gauge modelers model one of the Colorado narrow gauge lines (or free lance versions of same) the way they were in the 30’s and 40’s. There are a few who model earlier eras (Paul Scoles comes to mind), but most narrow gaugers stick roughly to the same time frame as their steam era standard gauge counterparts.
With what’s currently available, it’s quite possible to come up with a reasonable looking pre-WWI railroa
Dave - Aristo-Craft Distinctive Miniatures made several different pre-WWI (actually pre-1900) switchers in Zamac for HO scale around 1960. Don’t know if they could be re-motored, or if it would even be worth the trouble, but they certainly did once exist.
I believe F units were in use into the 1980s on some railroads… A keen eye could even see some Alcos running around in industrial yards… As for pre-WW1 steamers, find yourself a copy of the Guide to North American Steam Locomitives, by kalmbach and I’m sure you’ll be able to find matches somewhere… This particular book only deals with post 1900 but there’s a lot of information to give a jumping off point into research… Just to flip open the book, page 278, New York Central, 2-8-0, Class G-96, Road #s 513-527 build by Brooks, 1905-1907… The first 2-8-2s listed, and there were 122 of them, rebuilt in the Brooks shops in 1912…
So how far before WW1 do you want to go?? If you are trying to be true to some prototype, I can respect that but, why not write your own railroads history?? I’ve seen it done and to get the story off the ground, it’s very effective…
Then of course there are Logging railroads… One I would suggest looking at is the Little River Logging company… It’s Not narrow gauge, but standard gauge… There is/was a book published “Whistles Over the Mountain” that gives a tie by tie description. It even describes where (near Gattlinberg TN) you can walk some of the route and get a feel of the terrain. Had shays, rodded locos, even mallets (2-4-4-2)… Pretty neat railroad to model… Or come up with your own… Shays (1880-1944), Climax (1888-1923), Heisler (1891-1941) according the steam locomotive book.
I know you didn’t ask this sort of question, I’m just tossing ideas to help get you your pre-WW1 layout.
As for me, I’m a WWII railfan, born in 1963. Outside of an amusement park, never saw a steam engine run, in person, but I still enjoy the models.
CNJ831 wrote:
“Late 19th century and turn-of-the-century locomotives were physically quite small and even today it’s difficult to produce a really good running example of these engines in HO scale because of the necessary small size of the motor/flywheel.”
Don’t necessarily buy that either since there are N scale engines that perform very well. I have also operated on a 1905 era layout with remotored and regeared 4-4-0’s and 4-6-0’s in brass that perform flawlessly. Take an N scale 4 axle diesel. Put HO scale 33" wheels gauged to HO standard gauge. Replace the diesel sideframes with archbars. Put it in the tender. Since all that and a DCC decoder can fit in a N scale hood unit there is plenty of room in an HO tender, with considerable room for weight. There is no reason an good running HO 4-4-0, 4-6-0, 2-6-0 or 2-8-0 can’t be produced.
Andrechapelon said:
“MDC had a pretty full line of old time freight cars (box, tank, reefer, caboose - which pretty much covers it except for gons and flats) and also had some nice 80’ passenger cars from the turn of the century, not to mention the 1870/1880’s passenger cars.”
Sorta. they produces only 36’ cars which were less than half the fleet in 1905. The rest were 34 ft and 28-30 ft cars. Its kinda like saying that the only boxcar you have is the Athearn 40 ft. We have progressed way beyond that. There are literally dozens of reasonably priced, under $20 a pop, boxcar models from the 1950’s. Maybe ONE manufacturer would care to make ONE other car other than the MDC 36’ car.
And he also said:
“If you want to model the pre-WWI period, you’re going to have to “make do” with craftsman kits. There’s just not the same kind of market as for later periods.”
Its a self fulfilling prophecy. Nobody makes any equipment so nobody models it so everybody says there is no market.
I know you can make models out of resin (I have make P&R class XMe 34’ boxcars, new resin under
The first 75 years of railroading on this continent began in either 1826 (Granite RR, Quincy, MA) or 1830 (B&O) and that would put 75 years at either 1901 or 1905. If you are talking strictly before WWI’s start (1914), than it should be more like the first 84-88 years, not 75.
As far as the manufacturers thinking that RR’s were invented in 1945, I don’t think that holds much water. Take a look and you will see that many diesels of the pre-1945 era have been made in plastic: E6’s, DL109’s, The Zephyr, NW2’s, S-1’s, S-2’s, RS-1’s, FT’s, etc. Even more have been made in brass. And we haven’t started on the rolling stock.
And the steam? Most if not all the plastic models made are pre-1945 in origin.
And this is not counting those models of the “John Bull” and “DeWitt Clinton” that I see from time to time.
MDC sold 7 to 8 different wood-era car kits, and 17 different wooden passenger cars, not 2 or 3.
Not true. I could buy a nice New Haven EP-1 electric, last built in 1908, from Railworks/Crown Custom Imports or NJ/Custom Brass (a long time ago for that one). And what about Shays and Climaxes and Heislers?
And I don’t know how obscure the 2-6-0 camelback is. Didn’t LNE and other
Modeling circa 1910, I always pause before opening the latest MR and pray that there will be an announcement that something like a PRR wooden GG or fishbelly GL hopper will appear… heck, I’d be thrilled even if they came with cast-on grabs and hook-horn couplers!
Always disappointed, my frustration grows as I see the perpetual ads for Cable Cars and pre-Civil War classics like the John Bull or De Witt Clinton train sets (oh yeah baby… we’re talking big-time, mass-marketing potential there!!! :D). Gee, will the manufacturers ever liquidate the original production runs of these models?!?
After I simmer down a bit, I take comfort in the fact that one can piece together a reasonable equipment roster … providing that you’re willing to mix craftsman and shake-the-box kits, kit-bash a lokie or two, and aren’t too wrapped up about following a particular prototype. Come to think of it… that was part of the attraction.
Dave, taking some license, I have juxtaposed two statements you made. You don’t appear to see exactly the point that I and others have been making…it is precisely because they WERE produced and used during that nearly 5% of the time left for steam that we wealthy late-middle-aged and retired men (mostly) were exposed to what we now model. It IS nostalgia. So, since the dollars are there, are not the manufacturers paying us the ultimate compliment of telling us that WE are always right? And we want the stuff that was produced latterly, the stuff of the big steam mystique.
Personally, I have zero interest in slide-valved six-wheelers that weighed in at, what, 40 tons, and hauled maybe 150 tons at 30 mph before cylinder valves (more pleasing to my eye) were invented. And the wide expanding stacks? Puhleese.
Nope, as a fellow born in '52, and who can remember being awestuck by steam when I was merely 2 years old, I want what I first saw. Moreover, BLI is only too happy to sell it to me.
I feel people will buy what they are truly sold on. Bachmann appears to have done this with On30. Many people switched to this scale/gauge. There could be good market for the early 1900’s or late 1800’s. But it may have to be created. The idea, romance and advantages of the era would have to be sold as well as products. Everything moved by rail back then. There were many types of industries both large and small served by rail. There was a great diversity of traffic and equipment. These were the glory days of shortlines that operated in the vicinity of all most everyone’s home in every part of the nation. Short equipment, short trains and numerous types of rolling stock make this era perfect for smaller model railroads. One can capture the character and reflect the operations of a real railroad in less space than the more modern eras. There are a lot of good points that have real benefits for modeling the earlier steam era. Someone will have to take a bold step with quality well packaged and well marketed products to see if it can be done profitably. But no matter how well done it still might fail. Bold steps fraught with risk are not things people or business’s like very much. But occasionally someone steps forward. I think the first steps in doing this with HOn3 are now taking place, so it could happen. Or at least someone might try it. Bruce
This subject is now being discussed on a O-gauge forum (OGR) since MTH will be offering late 1800’s/ early 1900’s steam. It’s a small market, but a lot of interest has been shown. While I love the look of early 1900’s steam, they would look out of place on any layout of mine, since I’m “nuts” for 1950’s diecast cars. Joe
I think if MTH offered a line of 1880s–1920s HO engines they’d have a better chance of stealing market share thatn going straight against the established K-4s. They would be appealling to a market that has been abandonded.
And if you think that this era doesn’t have nostlgia, how many of you miss John Wayne movies and can’t wait till the next Tom Selleck western comes out.