After about 50 years in HO I have had a number of layouts and have collected a lot of cars and locos. There was always that desire to have big yards, long consists, Mallets, etc. More track was better. At least, that was the older MR mindset. Larger layouts and craming as much stuff on the smaller 4X8 sheet that you could get on it.
N Gauge gave the 4X8 layout a real shot in the arm, especially after the gauge got some serious manufacturers that took the unfinished toy look out of the rolling stock and locos.
The latest spate of narrow gauge locos with Tsunami sound and rolling stock in all gauges is fabulous and the great part of narrow gauge is that long trains are 5-10 cars. Two or three engines are about all the entire road needs. A narrow gauge empire can involve fewer than 20 revenue cars and maybe 3 MOW items, worked by three engines.
There is rarely a need for what could be called a narrow gauge “yard”. Instead, a lot of single and double, well weeded sidings will handle 100% of the traffic, switching tricks and car storage scattered all up and down the line in several small “burgs”.
Finally, a large fraction of my old HO gauge structures and people are transferable. A lot of interesting action is possible as double and triple headers of tiny mikes are needed to pull 10 full ore gons, two freight cars and a caboose up the 4-5% grades. Three car passenger trains on the narrow gauge are considered obscenely long and found only on crack named trains run only during the “happy times”.
The human form is more “in tune” with the little engines and rolling stock and serve the local needs better.
I include a great narrow gauge video URL of the Durango and Silverton (ex D&RGW). Note the tiny box car compared to the brakeman coupling the little mike. Also note the sloppy, ill aligned track as the train 'rounds the bend. Beautiful scenery and little tr
In the 50 years that I have been in this hobby that is one thing I have never understood. Especially so on layouts that aren’t big enough for even a small one. I understand the draw to massive locomotives, to long trains, and even the desire to get as much railroad crammed into a small space as is possible, but what is the draw most people seem to have to a bunch of parallel tracks with cars sitting on them?
My first adventure into narrow gauge was not good. At the time allmost all narrow gauge loco’s were brass. I soon discovered their tight tollerances and that these small eight coupled locomotives required 24’ to 30" radius. Instead of easing the 4x8 blues it made space worse. As such the first narrow gauge loco’s I owned have been sitting in their boxes for 25 years or so. I certainly hope the foam hasn’t rotted on them. On the other hand I just got a Blackstone C-19 two weekends ago. So my narrow gauge modeling has started again.
If I were to abandon my current S standard guage endevors, no doubt the Lake Tahoe Railway & Navigation would my choice in Sn3, SP aquired control and converted the line in 1927, the exact year I currently model.
How odd, I just ordered my second C-19 with Tsunami sound this morning! You’ll love your C-19.
I have an old Westside Brass K-27 and it doesn’t like tight radius either. The Blackstones easily cruise over 18 radius and probably would handle a bit tighter track if the gauge was opened ever so slightly. Real narrow gauge engines with their blind drivers were famous for navigating tight turns and less than stellar track work.
Ever see a real live narrow gauge triple header? In this video, the Cumbres and Toltec, (a second hunk of old D&RGW trackage), seems to have all their engines and rolling stock out for a cinder pushin’ romp. The little mikes are literally “haulin freight” A triple header and triple cabooser as well! Wow!
My timing must just have been right. I started a medium sized layout based on the Rio Grande that is HO/HOn3, with considerable dual-gauge track. In part, I included standard gauge because I like Rio Grande standard gauge, too, but also because of the daunting task of building all the narrowgauge rolling stock I’d need. At least I would be able to run lots of SG while I labor to build a decent inventory of rolling stock.
Then came Blackstone. The superlatives that can be used are nearly endless. They produce absolutely magnificent models at what I consider to be fair prices. Some complain about that, but the fact is if you’ve spent lots of time building the same kit over and over, you KNOW it’s more of a bargain than such discussions indicate. My time is worth a lot, even hobby time, so I appreciate the value that Blackstone offers to those serious about NG.
That said, HOn3 has been a rather clubby scene. At one time, because you had to be pretty adventurous, resourceful, and somewhat well financed when every loco was either brass or something you built yourself and most everything else was scratchbuilt. This is not to say that current HOn3 modelers aren’t inventive or resourceful, but the fact of the matter is that by around 1980, a full line of items was available so long as you’re willing to devote the time to build kits. Why this image persists is mostly myth, nurtured by certain grumpy old guys who seem more interested in yelling “Get off my lawn!” than being helpful.
It is the case that some are uncomfortable with all the new attention to NG that RTR HOn3 has brought, but they’re passing into history. There are some great – and friendly! – groups out there, so search around if you don’t find the help you need to get started or advance in NG. Good folks are out there who will welcome you, even if you weren’t born in baggage care snowed in on Cumbres Pass.
I’d encourage anyone considering narrowgauge to consider it seriously, for all the advantages mentioned above. True, i
Before you get too exstatic about your vision of what narrow (i.e., smaller than 4’8.5") gauge is, bear in mind that it might collide head on with a reality check:
Track gauge 1067mm (3’6") - a secondary line through, “One of the most sparsely populated parts of Japan,” (Wikipedia) hosts two stopping locals and one express PER HOUR - plus freight. It doesn’t have big yards - it has HUGE yards. Revenue cars are counted in the thousands, and locomotives are counted in the hundreds in each class. Anyone looking for, “Well-weeded sidings,” will search in vain. OTOH, someone looking for EMU trains capable of 160kph, or DMU that can sustain 90kph on heavy grades, will be well rewarded.
Track gauge 762mm (2’6") - not one, but two separate specialist lines. The logger (ceased operations 1975 - still in place) had dozens of `critters’ and about a gazillion semi-disconnects, in addition to such specialized items as a fire train and a school train (no school busses in a roadless forest.) The line built to aid in construction of a BIG hydro project has (yes, present tense) a couple of dozen locos, a bunch of special freight equipment and several multi-car trains of tourist/excursion stock. It also has overhead wire - the locos are catenary
Mike, Thanks for adding even more fine points to the narrow gauge discussion. As I have noted in my earliest posts, I am here doing what I am doing and back in to MR after a 15 year hiatus solely due to Blackstone and for no other reason at all! The other reasons came after I got my first Blackstone K-27 in early 2011 and spent a few months boning up of Colorado narrow gauge history, spending about $200.00 for Bob Richardson’s fabulous trio of "Chasing the Narrow Gauge books and the Denver and South Park book. The hook was set and more than a few bucks later, here I am working on the railroad again.
I considered dual gauge track and bought a bundle at the Timoniumtrain show last year, but ultimately decided to allow full concentration on narrow gauge only. What I did do was make up a 4X8 sheet layout Containing two concentric a simple ovals with dual gauge HO and regular N gauge track to "run-in locos for myself and my friends. This undecorated, raw plywood table lifts into the ceiling for storage in an attached building on my house used for other purposes. It really comes in handy for simply watching trains run while my main narrow gauge layout might remain an unfinished, work in progress for some time.
I look forward to scratchbuilding too.
I am not planning on getting any K-36s if that is truly what is next from Blackstone. However, all the three major Blackstone dealers that I know personally, claim that Blackstone refuses to discuss what is next and may not even know themselves, yet. They throw up their hands in frustration. They could be selling the next Blackstone product, but it ain’t there.
I took the Blackstone on-line survey and told them I would buy three “sports models” , (K-28s) at any price they choose the moment they were offered. I consider the K-28 to be the most beautiful of all narrow gauge engines ever built as long as they are in bla
As a newcomer to HOn3 and Rio Grande railroading, I truly value the information and great insight expressed in this thread. I had given up on my modeling after approx. 50 years in HO scale, due to health issues and sold my 12 locomotives & rolling stock. Then my health problem improved, and I found myself “trainless”, and decided to look at narrow gauge.
I’ve just purchased 2 C-19’s and a K-27 (Blackstone), along with a few start-up passenger & freight cars… and am in the process of re-doing my train room, benchwork, and backdrop areas. I was a bit surprised to see the somewhat limited amount of HOn3 supplies & resources available (I guess HO scale spoiled me…) but I’m adapting quickly.
I’m just glad to find that there are other “narrow minded” forum members out there. 'See you around the train yard!
I know it is all a bit new to you now, but hang in there and while the sounds, as delivered on the Blackstones is great, make sure to explore the many sounds within the system using the CV values to create your own special sound and reverb capabilities within the on-board audio production mixer.
This will require a good DCC command station. (I chose the Digitrax Zephyr ‘extra’) and you will need to print out the 100 plus page Tsunami prgrammers guide found on the CD provided with your engines. The guide is the same for all the engines. It took me a full year to learn the ropes. I’m 66 and slow on the uptake, but I am pleased beyond description at the final payoff with my finished sounds.
Spend a lot of time playing with your stuff on a simple loop or oval learning to program, setup and change the CV’s. As you get better and better, you will want to get to layout building.
Glad you are both back, just two among a big crowd lined up at the Narrowgauge Station. Look around, but if anyone gets stuck on anything from where to get what to where to find a good place to talk in depth with more narrowgaugers, please just ask. I’d be glad to make a suggestion or offer a link.
Two essentials that haven’t been mentioned are the Narrow Gauge and Short Line Gazette (an independently published magazine distributed by Kalmbach) and the HOn3 Annuals (2009, 2010, and 2011 issues so far) published by Carstens. In addition to great articles and fantastic pics, both also carry ads for many vendors that may be less widely advertised, but are well-known in the NG world.
There’s also the National Narrow Gauge Convention. It’s held yearly at a rotating location, which in 2012 is Seattle. There you’ll find the widest selection of narrowgauge products and the latest stuff being announced and produced.
While nothing is official on the K-36, my sources indicate that – off-the-record – word is that this is all but certain. But I would not be disappointed to be wrong if it was a K-28. I have a brass Sunset version from the mid-90s that is scheduled to get a Tsunami soon, which will be my second such install, so I may be a little more patient about the wait for a “sports” model. Whatever it is, it’ll most likely be announced in Seattle.
One indicator of how Blackstone is growing the market for HOn3 is Peco. Last year, they came out with HOn3 flex track. Apparently they just announced the availability of switches in HOn3 at a European show. Not quite the snap track some are starting to clamor for, but that means Peco joins ME and Shinohara in building widely available track components, in addition to a number of smaller, cottage manufacturers of custom track work.
Thanks, Richard… I still have my Digitrax Super Chief command station & controller set, so I am set in that department. I’ve settled on ME track & turnouts, as I used ME on my HO layout and was satisfied with it.
I still am a bit confused regarding cork roadbed… as HO looks too large, and N scale too small? Any guideance in that department?
I understand about “the uptake problem” as I’ll be 74 in May, and bearing that in mind, I intend to make this my last layout. I only have a small room, formally my home office, before my retirement, but it’ll do nicely for my new HOn3 pike.
Thanks again for the input, as I need all of that i can get at this stage of the game!
Actually, the advantages you list are true for any shortline railroad that’s not too prosperous regardless of gauge.
I think that a lot of folks are into On30 because the cars and engines are a good size - about the size of S standard gauge cars and engines. It’s also a bit cheaper with the deep discounts you can get on Bachmann stuff and of course you can use Atlas track to save even more. If I were to do narrow gauge as my primary railroad, On30 is what I would pick.
I already have the three Annuals (from Carstens) and have subscribed to the Gazette… the “big show” in Seattle sounds great… as I just attended the Great train Expo here in Kansas City last week and was amazed at the absence of Narrow Gauge items (all scales…) at the show. *One seller had a half dozen Blackstone cars, and that was it!!!
As I mentioned to Richard, my burning question at present concerns the choice of roadbed (HO or N ?) HO looks to wide & too high!
I use just standard old HO cork roadbed, but hindsight is always 20-20. I now wished I had used nothing at all as narrow gauge lines ran mostly on dirt or rubble fill and were often on no real grade at all! I would have to tear up more track than I am willing to re-work to go flat on my homasote base. Narrow gauge looks best and very natural with just rails and tie tops showing on zero grade elevation beyond the natural terrain. If you model prior to 1890 a lot of track is virtually unballasted on round log ties that were just planed top and bottom, bark still on the sides.
I see nothing wrong with just using standard HO cork roadbed though if you really want roadbed.
I have to agree with Paul on both counts. Modeling any shortline, like the Ma & Pa, means short trains, limited trackwork, small rosters, sharp curves, etc, - it need not be narrow gauge.
And, having done some work in HOn3, if I ever went back in that direction, it would have to be in a larger scale than 1/87th.
On3 or On30 really brings home the human interaction of smaller simpler trains.
But my modeling interests are currently firmly rooted in big time 1950’s, Class I operations. And, admittedly, I have the space for it.
But I do believe that reguardless of era or railroad type, layouts need not be overly crouded or complex to cover the subject matter. Narrow gauge, shortline or double track mainline Class I, better to model a small portion of it well than a large potion of it poorly.
We should not confuse size with complexity. Just because a layout is large, it need not be complex.
As for which roadbed, I used HO for all my track, HO, dual, and HOn3. However, I most likely would use N if I did it again on the narrowgauge side.
I guess I think that putting track down right on the sub-roadbed – in most cases wood – is going to be noisy, so my advice is to use something. I do know some are trying foam, like WS?, but I’m not sure about how it’ll hold up. Cork does get dry and brittle, so it’s pick your poison on that aspect.
As for getting that dirted in look, that’s all in how you ballast and how you apply your scenery. I’m happy with mine, although if you didn’t use roadbed at all it would be a lot less ballast. But you do need to plan for it or you’ll end up with an entirely too neat looking line.
While there are NG lines that resemble mainline action and standard gauge lines that resemble what many HOn3 lines look like, modelling the Rio Grande and its associated connections in Colorado is all about which aspect of NG you want to depict. 70 car freights behind multiple locos? Cumbres Pass. Classy varnish? The San Juan. Logging? Connections at Chama and Dolores, among others, to woods lines and sawmills. Little struggling shortline traffic feeders? If the RGS is too big time, then there are the Three Little Lines that ran north out of Silverton. And plenty of classy short train railroading through just about any Western scenery you can imagine.
Guess I’m unapologetic about being Colorado-centric, but it’s one of the realities that the HOn3 modeler contends with. Either love it or do something else, they’re both good. And some people are happy to dabble in just about anything HOn3. I like doing freelance things that there may not have been a prototype for, but which could have been.
One of the things I like is not necessarily many NGer’s cup of tea, because I like diesels, too. There are a few authentic diesel models available, but there are also a number of good looking conversions to HOn3 that allow a much lower entry cost to the HO
I think I’ll either go with N scale cork roadbed, or no roadbed at all… I’ll have to think that one over a bit. If I do N scale, it looks like I’d have to use the N roadbed supplemented by a center strip or spacer of some sort. (I guess i wonder about the sound without any roadbed present…)
I haven’t decided what aspect/era I want to model yet… I’m sort of like Mike, in that I may do some things that are not verifiable as prototype, but are “probable” or “possible”!
I already have received my two C-19 locomotives, and I’m waiting for the K-27 (#462 weathered, with plow). The performance & appearance of the C-19 is impressive, to say the least.
What people usually do when using the N scale roadbed is let the ties hang out over the edges without any filler strips. That way you can grade the ballast to expose as much or as little of the tie ends as you want. This technique becomes more obvious if you start looking at pics of the Rio Grande right of way and the varied ways in which maintenance, erosion, and weathering affected the track’s appearance.
Here’s a great site by John West, a a guy who’s wasted his life chasing trains, but doesn’t seem unhappy about it [;)] :
Lots of views of the track to help give you some ideas about how you’ll want to model it and the interface between track and scenery…
John’s site doesn’t cover only the Rio Grande or Colorado. However, Colorado and the railroad are attractive targets for railfans, vacationers, and photographers, thus there is plenty of documentation available to model with. While this focus upsets some, it’s also a little like the European fascination with Swiss trains (and to a certain extent, Austrian and other NG lines are in similar relationship to the Swiss as the C&S, etc are to the Rio Grande).
Essentially, it’s a very similar niche market that is widely accepted and well provided with suitable models and supplies to fans in many countries, whatever their interest in their own national railways of various types. Bemo and the others serving this sub-class of overall model railroading apparently make a profit, as well as providing a market base for even more specialized manufacturers, just as Blackstone has done here in the US.