I need to vent here for a minute so if you don’t like reading a bit please don’t go on. I don’t want to hear how it was uneccessary.
I’ve often wondered why there is so much disparity in O scale compared to other scales. It seems that O scale is divided and subdivided up into so many classifications that the outsider must surely get confused about what it truly is. We have toy trains, hi railers, 3RS (3 rail scale), 2 rail, P48, and to a lesser extent the older outside 3rd rail. It seems anymore that everyone fits into one classification. Then to make things even more confusing if you are into 3 rail or O27, you are into O gauge as opposed to O scale. I find this a bit strange. Why can’t we all just be O scalers? Isn’t that what it is really all about? Why is an O scaler only a person who likes 2 rail while someone into 3 rail and it’s variety is into O gauge? I’ve always taken exception to those who suggest my opinion violates their strict group centric rules of adherence, especially when they become quite mean about it. An on going issue in this regards centers on a certain other large O based forum. We all seemed to get along just fine until one day I stated that in my opinion Lionel had made an engine a bit more accurate than MTH did which is why I bought it. It was my opinion but apparently it was wrong. How can an opinion be wrong? It was like floodgates were opened. Suddenly I am the antichrist to their way of thinking and everything I say is offensive to them when I never had any ill will towards any of them. It never goes away either. They just can’t forgive me for this statement and just keep building on it making things worse.
The way I look at it, all electric trains are models. Then again so is live steam. Whether they ride on 2 rails, 3 rails, are perfectly sized or not, have absolute accuracy to the prototype or just have molded on details, they are all models. Models with varying levels of accuracy (inaccu
Fred…you are not wrong. These folks don’t validate you or anyone else, though they may think so.
Trying to debate with anal retentive, self-righteous folks who feel compelled to get cranked up over opinions and then assault anyone whose opinion differs…an exercise in total futility. Just don’t go there, or if you do, don’t get sucked in. The scale discussion can get a bit complex. Throw in gauge, then even more so. Don’t forget personal preference.
As the numerous threads in this forum indicate on the topic, these discussions will never die. Education must continue for the less knowledgeable like myself. And respect/civility should be maintained at all times.
Certain folks will never get that last part. They will just throw hand grenades while cowardly hiding behind the anonymity that is a Forum. Write them off.
Jack
PS: If you disagree with me, take a deep breath, then attack! [;)]
I am going to take your side in this ( I read all the way through and ENJOYED it). I was brought up in the world of HO scale and did that for 20+years, but the layouts were my fathers and lacked the realism that layouts today in that scale have. I switched to “O scale” a few yaers back (after a brief stop in N scale). Because of my interests, my O scale layout features 027 track, weathered with added ties and realistic scenery and operation. I use 027 style equipment because I feel the look is close enough to real for me. I am a model railroader, not a historian, so capturing the feel is what is important to me. I enjoy my time in the train room and do not worry at all about what suits other people.
As a side note my father and I along with a family friend are building a two story30x40 Ft / 12x40 ft building on my property for a new HO scale (in the 30x 40 room) and O scale (upostairs) layout(s).
The HO scale layout will be in the style that makes my dad happy…I am just happy to be able to build a layout with him as an adult! The Oscale layout ( a few years out) will be more in my style. I have learned to enjoy the hobby for what it is…a HOBBY! While there is room for many differant aspects and interests within it, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR ANYONE TO PUT DOWN WHAT OTHERS DO!
I try to learn from every one, whether it is a prototypical modeler or someone with a circle around a Christmas tree, everyone has something to offer!
Why worry a minute about the opinionated folks on any forum? Enjoy the trains and share your opinions as you see fit. Nothing makes everyone happy so don’t try. Who says anyone else’s opinion matters an iota anyhow? O scale may be subdivided so much because it was the early scale and growth made many options available …
I think that I know which forum you are talking about, and it may have been a thread about the Veranda Turbines in particular, if I am not mistaken. For what it’s worth(if I am right about the thread and forum) the Real Verandas had swinging pilots, NOT solid pilots, anyway. And in HO, the defacto standard coupler, the Kadee, is over-size for the scale also, maybe NOT as MUCH, as O Gauge couplers, but still oversized none the less.
The suspected forum tends to be very partial to Purple and Yellow boxes, and anything that came in an Orange and Blue box, isn’t worthy of discussion over there, to many of the regulars. Mike can do no wrong.
As far as model trains go they ARE ALL TOYS. regardless of size, scale, detail or cost, they are all toys. They are not tools, they provide no service, and the only things that they produce are SMILES and FRUSTRATION, in always varying proportions, but the are still TOYS.
Some people must tear others down, rather than stand on their own accomplishments to feel good about themselves.
No it wasn’t that thread but I do think it was that forum.
I’m not really concerned with what others think of my opinions. I am a bit confused why there is so much animosity in O scale towards other aspects of it? There doesn’t need to be. I had actually mentioned that perhaps people should relax and enjoy their trains and then got an earfull from a few others about how I shouldn’t be telling them what to do or how to do it. Some people are so focused on only one aspect of the hobby that you aren’t a scale modeller in O scale until you at least have Kadee couplers and fixed pilots on your engines yet overly large flanged 3R wheels though don’t seem to matter. You’re still a scale modeller. Oh yeah, Lionel doesn’t qualify either but MTH does. It’s that type of lunacy that I take exception to. It’s ridiculous. Keep in mind the above is an example. I like it all. What if my curves are too tight for fixed pilots? There is lots of very long equipment out there today and even O-72 can be quite sharp in some instances.
My point of this thread wasn’t because I am taking things personally although it can be easy to do. The point of this is to question why this disparity among various aspects of O scale even exists. Why isn’t everyone in O an O scaler? N scale people are n-scalers or n modellers. I never got chastised there for wanting my couplers on my trucks as opposed to body mounted. No one cared. They did what they wanted to do and respected everyone else for their views. Preferences aside. Sometimes I feel like O scale is the High Schooler of the model railroading community. That’s what it reminds me of. Everyone needs to fit in with one group and then solely adhere to those standards or fear being outcast and ridiculed everytime you show your face. It doesn’t matter if some of their own standards conflict with their ultimate goal. I’m really trying to figure out how this all came to be as to me it makes no sense. Why should I care how many rails some
I know what you mean, I’ve met say an O 2-railer and got talking about some O craftsman’s kit I was building or something and the guy would be interested in talking to me until at some point something would come up indicating I had a three-rail / hi-rail layout and it would be like “Oh…you’re a TOY train guy…” like as if he just realized he was talking to an idiot or something.
One thing I like about the three-rail crowd is it seems to me like they are a bit more open to other folks opinions and ideas. A “scale only” 1:48 hi-rail builder, a pre-war tinplate collector and a post-war Lionel operator can visit each other’s layouts and appreciate each other’s work and their trains.
p.s. I agree, I always have like the term “electric trains” since it covers the whole gamut - tinplate, scale, two/three rail, narrow gauge etc. are all electric trains (unless you’re a live steamer I guess!)
There is only minimal disparity in 0 (as in zero) scale, which is either modeling .25"/1’ or 7mm/1’.
There isn’t any disparity in 0 gauge, which is 1.25" between the rails.
Where the smoke, fumes and fury arise is in the confusion between the two, and the inclusion of other things done in the name of 0 gauge but not modeled to 0 scale:
American Flyer S scale on 0 gauge three rail.
Lionel O27 - undersize ‘something like 0’ on preposterous radius.
2-rail 0 scale - on (scale) 5 foot gauge.
Proto48 - true 0 scale on proper gauge track.
Hi-rail - Modified Lionel toys on wider-radius 3-rail track.
Q scale - 17/64"/foot or 7mm/foot on 1.25" track gauge, 2 rail.
I’m sure I missed a few.
Now, IF everyone who models in any of the above (or in some other scale/gauge) acknowledges that other people who model in something else above (or in some other scale entirely) has made a choice based on THEIR conditions, and stop treating their choice (made to fit their conditions) as The One True Faith (and all who do otherwise are heretics) maybe we would see more light and less heat.
Of course, if you think that 0 scale/gauge/whatever is bad, just check with our G gauge friends over at the Garden Railways forum.
Personally, I am a real minority scaler. Nevertheless, I enjoy seeing what others are doing, whether good or not so good, regardless of the scale or track gauge of the models - and I promise that I will never try to ‘convert’ anyone to my choice of scale or
Fred…in an adjacent CTT thread on scale versus Baby Hudsons which you probably have read, Don posted a 1943 photo of a New Haven freight. The steamer sizewise appears to dwarf some of the cars, and some of the cars dwarf other ones. Don wrote something to the effect that size is in the eyes of the beholder, very aptly put.
A high railer, who posted here on CTT a few months back in a similar scale discussion, pointed out that in real life these size mismatches are common and are arguably more correct to the discerning hobbyist.
In SPF a few weeks back one poster who I believe said he also was a high railer commented on a guy’s layout, that it was “very nice” but with the added caveat " for a toy train approach." A compliment with a qualifier like that to me was an insult and totally unnecessary. Why couldn’t he just compliment and let it go?
I understand and respect those who want to be down to the essence of the detail. But not everyone shares that passion for total visual continuity and perfection… or for that matter assembling a consist that is period and regionally correct. Each to his own.
The O scale nuances you went over in detail have an educational value for us all, and I thank you for that. This is a diverse hobby filled with so much choice, and I would hope we keep in mind the hobby is for the great and small alike. Elitism and rudeness has no place in it.
Fred, part of the problem you speak of is that people are just opinionated, Which is fine, until they pronounce their “opinion” as the best or only way.
Part of the problem too is that for the vast majority of Lionel’s long history, the trains were O-gauge and NOT O-scale. Sure there were products like the Trainmaster and the F-3’s that were pretty darn close to scale proportions, but the vast majority of products were selectively compressed in one way or another. The products were toys aimed at boys along with their fathers.
In the past couple decades the train makers came up with the novel idea of doing something that hadn’t been done much before… going to accurate scale proportions. And it worked. With the advent of the digital control technology and related features, locomotives almost need to be full scale to allow room for the larger motors and added electronics, though the circuit boards have been getting smaller over recent years.
Now the products are more aimed at middle-aged men and not boys. Truth be told, nearly all the adults in the 3-rail hobby today are here because we had toy trains as kids. Though that seems to get forgotten in the choir of selfish adults saying “make this for me and make it this way and make it right now” which to me is more annoying than kids teasing for something. And isn’t teasing and whining something we try to teach children not to do. Hmmm. Some didn’t learn that lesson as children I guess.
All these new features and realism have brought many back into the hobby. And with little question this new scale trend is the fastest growing segment of the 3-rail train hobby. BUT with no question it is NOT the majority of the hobby… the traditionally sized trains based on the past is still the biggest part of the 3-rail market.
And here’s where the problem enters. Instead of saying "the more
You hit it pretty well their Chuck. It’s not the size difference that is the issue. It’s the attitude of many people that is.
I’d definitely say I’m a minority modeller. I am pursuing stud rail (and am getting closer to being able to sell it btw!) yet I intend to obviously stay 3 rail as that’s what stud rail is, but I am going to run DCC as opposed to AC powered using Legacy/DCS. My n-scale layout already uses an Easy DCC system and I only have one O engine that has sound. My 2 favorite engines are my brass outside 3rd rail engines from the 40’s. I’m half tempted to leave them as is and just run outside rail as I also have an easy solution for that. I’m pretty much into realism but I stop short of counting every single rivet and getting ever tiny detail perfect. Somehow there are some people that think I’m still not into 3 rail scale modelling due to one particular engine I own. I also dabble in O27 so I guess now I’m really not a scale modeller! Oh well.
In regards to G scale, are you referring to train sizes or opinions? I know there are many different scales.
You hit it pretty well their Chuck. It’s not the size difference that is the issue. It’s the attitude of many people that is.
I’d definitely say I’m a minority modeller. I am pursuing stud rail (and am getting closer to being able to sell it btw!) yet I intend to obviously stay 3 rail as that’s what stud rail is, but I am going to run DCC as opposed to AC powered using Legacy/DCS. My n-scale layout already uses an Easy DCC system and I only have one O engine that has sound. My 2 favorite engines are my brass outside 3rd rail engines from the 40’s. I’m half tempted to leave them as is and just run outside rail as I also have an easy solution for that. I’m pretty much into realism but I stop short of counting every single rivet and getting ever tiny detail perfect. Somehow there are some people that think I’m still not into 3 rail scale modelling due to one particular engine I own. I also dabble in O27 so I guess now I’m really not a scale modeller! Oh well.
In regards to G scale, are you referring to train sizes or opinions? I know there are many different scales.
A guy from corporate who used to be a trainer refered to this kind of comment as the “but bomb”.You did a nice job but…Just remember opinions are like backsides everyone has one and most of them stink. Run what you enjoy not what someone else thinks you should.Dont forget this is a hobby,a place to relax, there is enuogh stress in the real world.
Hey Fred. I read your whole post. Dont worry about what some others want to proselytize to you in regards to what YOU should be into. Its none of their business is it? I look at it like this, Im a model railroader nothing more nothing less. The vast majority out there who are into model railroading are a great bunch of people. It is that vocal minority of Kool-Aid drinkers that bring down the high of enjoying our trains. I’ll offer this thought: there is a segment (small) of our hobby that are not well socially adjusted, they are away in their basements running their empire just the way they think it should be. Nothing wrong with that, its just when they come out of the basement they still seem to think that they must dictate to others how they should approach their hobby. To them i say: pound sand, and go back to what ever flavor Kool-Aide that is was they were drinking in the basement.
You are correct!
I’ve always felt and I voiced my opinion on this here forum that there should only be ONE 1:48 Scale–PERIOD!
These, companies just want to make a sale and say that they are accommodating the consumer’s needs.
B.S.!!!
The only thing about 1:48 Scale, or it’s variations, is it’s popularity and how much can the consumer spend, not really the available size of the consumer’s layout space.
That Is MY, DUE TO THE PRESENT ECONOMY, ONE CENT WORTH!
Interesting post and comments. Now, let me see: “Classic Toy Trains”…Toy trains that represent typical and well-known “Real Life” trains. (Z,N,TT,HO,S,O,G)–All are still toy trains.
I think the ‘disparity’ only comes to light when someone takes a “purest” approach to his own interpretation of “what should be” and tends to be a bit dictatorial. Sure, there are differences in the nomenclature and physical attributes within the “O” world but I wonder if it really matters.
To me, its a hobby and should be enjoyed. I play with my trains. I admire the modelers who work hard at their aspect of the hobby. There’s room for everyone. At my age, I just let the other guy preach his sermon and then I do my thing with my ‘O27’ trains and have fun. [:)]
Good post there Fred and I agree with you. My take on it is that my trains were toys and I played with them when I got them back in the fifties and that’s exactly what they still are. Fun is the name of the game for me and postwar 027 does the trick. Let others have and do what they want. It’s their time and money. Keep on having fun everyone!