That would likely have been more due to the physical condition of the track at the time than the Big Boy itself. I watched it passing over the D&H and the Bevier Street yard in Binghamton when it was moved from Vermont, and it appeared to be doing just fine.
Were they using Atlas or Kato track?[:o)]
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I was planning on visiting Scranton this month. Maybe I’ll ask them to fire up the Big Boy and give me a ride.[bday]Afterall, it will be my birthday.
no
Saw this thread today for the very first time - very interesting and thought provoking read. I was thinking the whole time of the Last of the Giants (all 3 volumes) put out by Pentrex, while reading through the posts. Those tapes are a must have if you truly love the Big Boys. If you watch Vol 3, like mentioned in an earlier post, you’ll likely come to agree that the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get.
Unfortunately, the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn’t want to do it. The restoration of a Big Boy itself would be very doable, but expensive - but it would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT (and might I suggest even more TT’s when considering turning the loco only / independant of the tender.) That may be true, but the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT’s is not set up top handle the BB. Steve Lee mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can’t restore one. He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several years of their steam progarm’s operating budget (again like others have said here). But the real caveat was when he said that even if somebody were to donate a Big Boy to the Up Steam Program and they were willing to spend the money on restoring the BB they wouldn’t do so because they realistically have no where to run it. He men
i dont get it. the big boy derails on curves? how? the 4-axle trucks are too long? but then how come the DDA40X has no trouble on curves?
Oh, Max…firstly, you ever compare those driver sets to a D diesel truck? One is a LOT bigger. And seconly, I do believe that the DDA40Xs did have derailment troubles…
“…the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. …the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn’t want to do it… [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]…”
The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don’t want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980’s (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes.
"…the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT’s is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400’s are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can’t restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don’t own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several years of their steam progarm’s operating budget (again like others
I too am skeptical that the situation is as difficult as you say, although I don’t doubt that restoring any Big Boy to operating condition would take at least several million dollars and would give you a locomotive that could only operate in some places, and with high variable costs (e.g., fuel consumption, routine maintenance) too. Also, I agree that it would be harder on the track, but how much of a problem this would be would have a lot to do with how regularly you ran it over a given segment of track.
The simple weight and/or axle loading is probably not a huge problem. As was said, the axle loadings and weight per distance on a unit coal train are IIRC close to the maximum of standard modern design, which is (or at least not too long ago was) a Cooper’s E80 rating. The Challenger (UP 3985) runs about E72, as I recall; I doubt the Big Boy is that much more because it has two extra axles and is longer. SOME structures (e.g., major bridges) dating to at least the 1930’s were designed to at least E90, and I suspect that today most main lines, at least that carry unit coal trains, are at or close to E80.
The ability to turn the locomotive is indeed a red herring. Use a wye! There are still a fair number of wyes out there, albeit fewer than there were. Within 50 miles of my house are several wyes that are plenty long enough to turn a Big Boy.
Admittedly I do suspect that the high reciprocating forces are quite hard on the track and possibly other light infrastructure. I’m not suggesting they’re likely to cause catastrophic failures, but they do impose disproportionate wear and tear. And it’s not simply the weight of the rails.
As for oil firing, well, people have converted the Challenger, Reading 2100, and lots of smaller locomotives. It can be done. The question is mainly the cost and work involved, and the willingness to incur enough trial and error, if needed.
Wrinnsbum, you have a peculiar logic that makes it hard to take stock in your arguments.
First, you insert things into my quotes that are of your own assumption – and which are wrong assumptions at that. For example, your very first insertion was when I said somebody said there were 2 turntables left – you assumed I meant and inserted [Steve Lee], when in fact I meant somebody, in an earlier post of this already 5 page topic, had said that. I wasn’t even thinking of Lee at that point. That leads me to a second issue – the apparent agenda you have. It’s pretty obvious you don’t like Steve Lee or the UP and many of your assertions appear to be more of a personal issue you have with the man rather than being an objective and cogent rebuttal to what either I said or what I reported as Steve Lee as having said. I am not saying you have to like the man or even agree with him, but your reply contains more insults towards him and his approach to the UP’s steam program than substance. Frankly, the insults cloud any of the truths that your rebuttals might legitimately have, as it appears that your interest is more in the axe you have to grind with Lee or the UP than with having an honest critical discussion on the possibility of a Big Boy returning to steam. You several times make it sound and imply that the UP almost has an obligation to restore a Big Boy or more steam locomotives in general, which is quite ludicrous. Then you mention others who restore locos they don’t own themselves and Steam town to blast Lee and the UP. My question here is why aren’t Steamtown and others restoring a Big Boy? I don’t mean that as a slam against Steamtown or the others – rather to point out a flaw in your logic in the way you used them to snipe at others. Also what other major railroad even regularly runs steam on their property, never mind maintains a substantial annual budget for just such a program? And UP is the bad boy for that, while the others go unscathed? The implied obligation doesn’t belong to the o
Lets try to look at the big picture here. Say for instance you had the money to restore said Big Boy and you really loved railroads. Which means you have millions of dollars and are willing to spend it on trains. I personally would plead with you to buy as many cars and engines that are today headed for the scrappers torch and preserve as much equipment as possible for future generations rather than bring another steamer back to life. We have preserved Big Boys but look at the number of other types of steam engines that there are no longer any examples left of. Just look at the number of restored steam engines that spent the majority of this year in storage because there was no where to run them. What the heck! UP owns not just the engines but a Class 1 railroad they can run them on when ever they want and look how much time their’s were parked and cold. If you hit the lottery or receive an inheritance I beg you to buy SD45"s etc., etc. and Hertage fleet cars etc., etc. before the scrappers get them or even just support your favorite railroad museum. Restoring a Big Boy. I think there are many ways the money would be much better spent. While I would love to see one under steam as much as the next person. History will be better served and our grandkids will thank us too (if they are railfans) if we leave the ash pans cold.
Doubt it they ever will except on a special run at a very short distance . As far as not being able to on today’s tracks … yes they could . Almost all tracks … tunnels and bridges were designed and built back in the 10’s and 30’s around here . If they could then they could now . The alleghaney C&O engines flew down the tracks here in Maryland . They were almost the same size !
[quote user=“wrinnsbumboy”]
“…the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. …the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn’t want to do it… [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]…”
The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don’t want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980’s (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes.
"…the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT’s is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400’s are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can’t restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don’t own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would needlessly use up several
The thing i find odd, is that today’s 155lb continously welded rail, can’t support a 4-6-6-4 or 4-8-8-4 Big Boy?? That is quite odd. I could understand it not being able to be on 100lb jointed or even 132lb rail? Can someone make sense of this??? And those GE ES44AC’s and DC’s are not light, neither is the SD90MAC-H II, and they sometimes run on 100 to 132lb rail.
[quote user=“coborn35”]
[quote user=“wrinnsbumboy”]
“…the likelihood of a Big Boy running again for any stretches longer than a few miles are probably about as close to zero as you can get. …the problem at hand is all about infra-structure and not at all about whether the UP or anybody does or doesn’t want to do it… [loco restoration] would be no where near the expense that would be required to bring the infrastructure (right of way) to the conditions necessary to run a Boy Boy. Somebody [Steve Lee] said there are still 2 turntables left still big enough to turn a BB and possibly more if you allow for turning them overhanging the TT [which was the way they were always turned]…”
The turning issue is a complete red herring, propagated by Lee and the UP - who just don’t want to do another locomotive. There are wyes all over the place that could accommodate a Big Boy. Not only have they failed to restore anything new since the 1980’s (when 3985 was done), but they refuse even to entertain the idea of doing anything more - like a 4-8-2, or a Pacific, for example. They take our money through fees on models and spend it to promote Republic politicians and put lousy paint schemes on ugly SD70ACes.
"…the infrastructure (re bridges, track, ROW) for operating between any of those TT’s is not set up top handle the BB [Nonsense. AC4400’s are ballasted to an axle loading of 35 tons, heavier than a Big Boy. Two combined equal the length of a Big Boy and weigh almost as much - 844,000 lbs.]. Steve Lee [our hero!] mentions in Vol 3, that the UP does not even own a single Big Boy (like others have also mentioned) so for starters, they can’t restore one. [Nonsense. Lots of groups restore engines they don’t own.] He then went on to say that even if somebody were to donate one to them to restore it would ne
I’m a late arrival on this thread but most of those who are taking UP and its employees to task for not restoring a Big Boy seem to forget that the Union Pacific Railroad is in the transportation business, not the entertainment business. While 844 and 3985 are great public relations devices for UP, UP is not under any obligation to operate these locomotives. A Big Boy was NOT a system locomotive when it was built in 1941 and, as others have pointed out, would be even more restricted in its operations today. There are an awful lot of locomotives and cars that are worth restoring and would have a much wider operating area than a Big Boy.
Thats a pretty good point, UP is a business, and they do just enough to stay good in the public eye (i.e. for those that don’t know the difference between a 4-8-8-4 and a 0-8-0) but otherwise the insurance fee keeps them from being really friendly with the everyday railroader (sorry a bit off topic, ah well)
That’s the way I see it, too. It seems that for some “railfans”, no good deed shall go unpunished.
I just love this sort of thing, everyone comes out of their shell and preaches their own wisdom, I did read the 5.5 mile long train in a book too, but took it with a grain of salt, primarily, if everyone that contributes to this forum was to put in a dollar for each word they submit, and the time they take to submit it, you would soon have enough resources to get one back on the rails, buy a railroad and run it.
When you do, please send it down under so we can enjoy it, Queensland Railways restored a 134ton Garratt and ran it for a while, it was a real drawcard, but after an expensive rebuild it has been sidelined.
It may take a bit of adapting to run a Big Boy on QR’s 3’6", but anythings possible, for the 15 year old, keep on wishing, you may just be the person to achieve the gaol sometime in the future, never lose sight of your dreams.
Teditor
P:S: I think I owe about $200.00 (US) and an hour for this post (two finger typing).
We should be seeing U.P. big Boy on the road again soon.
our President George Buish said WE WON this war In what less than 100 days after we started it.
The longest train on record was pulled by N&W in 1967 it was 500 cars long at 50’ per car that would be 4.73 miles lng just under the 5 mile mark. I would say it very doubtgful if not impossible that a Big Boy could pull that kind of load. This all started with my research for my Big Boy to be prototypically correct in pullng the proper number of car. So far I have come up with numbers averaging between 125 to 140 cars. The Big Boy was designed with a single purpose in mind. To conquer The Wasatch Grade, a sustained 1.14 percent uphill climb along Utah’s Weber Canyon to Echo which it did very sucessfully. Most railroads even back in the 40’s and earlier knew it wasn’t cost effective to run “super long” trains such as five miler’s. If it were they would still be doing itnow. It was mearly a record setting stunt by N&W which I beleive was broken by a railroad in either New Zeland or Austraila. When ever the Big Boy pulled super long trains it typically was on the Utah flats where there was little or no resistance.