Will this mean the death of railfanning as we know it?

Trains Magazine General Discussion
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http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1819/pub_detail.asp

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There are bulletins out here relating to our main line becoming a “secure corridor”. I won’t say what they concern, but I don’t think railfans need worry–at least not yet–as long as they respect the railroad’s private property.

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I wouldn’t worry about it. I don’t really see anyone building a 20’ high wall on both sides of any ROWs.

Like Carl says - stay off RR property and you won’t have a problem.

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Interesting - the linked press release [ thanks, Ric ! ] mentions appointing a “coordinator”, but Carl mentions a secure “corridor”.

I suspect this is another “Quick - put this into effect before we leave” regulatory promulgation by the departing lame-duck Bush administration, similar to many others with higher profiles with the media and public - notably, such as the longer hours of service for truckers

I’ll see if I can find a link or the actual text of the regulation, and see what it says. Most of us can imagine what would be sensible precautions - “Don’t drop off loaded tankers of chlorine gas - or other “PIH” - at remote yards or interchanges without prompt schedule connections to their next train, unless appropriate security will be provided in the interim”, etc.

  • Paul North.
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Railfanning as I knew it has been dead a long time…railfanning as we know it today deserves to die! The digital age, the electronic age, the investment age all have taken thier toll on railroads…and the “fanning” aspect…in many ways. Railroads used to be labor intensive so we were able to interface with the industry in a much more personal and respectful way. But as electronics progressed and investors wanted leaner properties, people were removed from the scene and less chance of a fan being able to be there and learn. Fewer trains, no people to talk to, to teach you, the more the hobby, a lessening interest in the history of the subject (unless it can be had by two on line keystrokes) has degenerated into a digital reflection from cameras more instant and efficient than Kodak or Land ever thought possible (and there are some great pictures out there now, too!). But more importantly this impersonalization of the railroad (for lack of a better description) has seen a lot less respect for the industry from an estranged (for whatever the reason) fan base. The digital picture is too often the only part of today’s railraod scene that one can capture.

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Here’s the text:

http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/20081110_rail_rule.pdf

It’s pretty long, but on a quick look it just seems to say that railroads have to appoint a security coordinator, and have to be able to keep track of where cars carrying hazardous materials are. If the gov’t asks, they have to be able to tell them within 5 minutes where any particular car is, and within 30 minutes for 2 or more cars. Also, railroads have to advise shippers if a car carrying hazardous materials is delayed in transit more than a specific amount of time.

In several places it talks about “chain of custody” basically meaning that as the car goes from producer to the railroad to the recipient, it’s whereabouts are accounted for and it’s security is assured.

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[%-)] OK, let me get this straight [}:)]. Railfans get questioned all the time to make sure we are not doing terrorists recon activity. Now it will be required to have a data base of some sort for showing car locations [D)]. Isn’t that done with car tags and AEI readers already.[sigh]

[banghead] Wow, I think we are in much bigger trouble then I thought.[V]

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Thanks, Stix - beat me to it by a few minutes.

“[P]retty long” = 204 pages. Actual regs. themselves are pp. 169 - 204, double-spaced, including a summary chart on 203 - 204. Recommended reading while you’re sitting trackside waiting for the next train to show up. Come to think of it, not a bad way to get to be an expert on almost anything . . .

A couple of more points:

  • These kinds of cars can’t be left unattended - so what does “attended” mean, in this context ? Some discussion of that;

  • TSA can come and inspect just about any railroad - including tourist, circus, historic, etc.;

  • Sensitive Security Information (“SSI”) and Rail Senstitive Security Materials (“RSSM”) are defined;

  • The “location and shipping information” required for prompt retrieval - within 5 mins. for a single car, and 30 mins. for multiple cars - is a little more elaborate. Here’s an excerpt of the text of that portion, from pp. 184 - 185:

49 CFR Part 1580,

§ 1580.103 Location and shipping information for certain rail cars.:

"(b) General Requirement. Each person described in paragraph (a) of this section must have procedures in place to determine the location and shipping information for each rail car under its physical custody and control that contains one or more of the categories and quantities of rail security-sensitive materials.

"(c) Required Information. The location and shipping information required in paragraph (b) of this section must include the following:

(1) The rail car’s current location by city, county, and state, including, for freight railroad carriers, the railroad milepost, track designation, and the time that the rail car’s location was determined.

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Man, I feel pretty darn stupid spending all this time and money on a dead hobby . . .

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I’d have to imagine that the Class 1’s have most of this information already - it’s just a question of whether it’s nicely collated for ready access or they have to go to several places to find it all. A shortline that lives by paper rather than sophisticated computer networks and databases might find it harder to comply with the 5 minute thing.

Seems like I’ve heard that many such cars are already being tracked by GPS, albeit by the shippers as opposed to the railroad.

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Yes, so a shortline has 30 minutes to respond/ comply, per this excerpt from page 187:

§ 1580.103 Location and shipping information for certain rail cars.

“(e) Timing-Other than Class I Freight Railroad Carriers. Upon request by TSA, all persons described in paragraph (a) of this section, other than Class I freight railroad carriers, must provide the location and shipping information to TSA no later than 30 minutes, regardless of the number of cars covered by the request.” [emphasis added]

There’s a discussion of comments related to GPS (Global Positioning System) tracking at pp. 107 - 108, 122, and 136 of the document. Also, at pp. 98 - 107 is a discussion of the AEI (Automatic Equipment Identification) tags and readers/ scanners vs. GPS, the AAR’s (Association of American Railroads) Railinc central databank service that apparently uses a variety of these technologies, and is utilized by both the carriers and the shippers, and Railinc’s FreightScope tracking system for smaller railroads that was developed in conjunction with ASLRRA (American Short Line & Regional Railroad Association). That’s plausible, but the rule is stated to be a performance standard, not tied to any specific technology (pg. 107, bottom).

  • Paul North.
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Dept of Hopeless Security at it’s best. Making it look like they are doing something. I forget the exact quotes of Don Phillips to use.

Rgds IGN

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Whew…thanks for the heads up! I guess I only thought I was having immense fun all these years [;)][;)]

Regarding the new security initiatives, I still say the same rules apply. Stay off private property, use common sense, don’t do stupid stuff and you won’t have any problems. Jamie

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As I read it, I don’t know how much of cargo is hazmat or nuclear material? As I see it, they will be adding a few more restrictions. Hanging around a chemical plant all day could be considered loitering. Time to move on to another location. Do you really need a photo of loaded tank cars?

There may be some locations that you can only get to on foot by tresspassing onto RR property and crossing track, bridges, etc.

Just because Obama won the election, the threat from terrorists dosen’t go away. Don’t be stupid.