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Wisconsin, Minnesota to explore second daily Chicago-Twin Cities train
A second train Chicago to St. Paul is long overdue. Interesting is that until 1977 Amtrak ran two trains a day on a daytime schedule between Chicago and the Cities. 77-81 the second train ran overnight. I’d rather see a second train run as part of the national network but if takes state support to get this done then so be it. In 1977 and before, the Empire Builder stopped at GLN, MKE, CBS, WDL (eastbound only), LSE & WIN. The North Coast Hiawatha made the current stops. Perhaps that can be done again.
This is a service which has been needed for a very long time. Although the Empire Builder continues to be an important strategic link between the two cities, the demand appears to be greater than the single train can provide. I am old enough to have frequently been a passenger between the two cities when there were multiple departures and arrivals on several railroads every day. This puts us on the “right track” once again.
If Scott Walker has to show off for the Tea Party, would it make any sense commercially to use the old Twin Cities Zephyr route down the Mississippi River and across Illinois?
Back in the 1950’s a passenger could travel in about 6+ hours from Chicago to Twin Cities by the following principal trains:
CMStP&P
Morning Hiawatha
Afternoon Hiawatha
Olympian Hiawatha
Pioneer Limited - overnight train
C&NW
Twin Cities 400
CB&Q
The Morning Zephyr
The Afternoon Zephyr
The Empire Builder
The North Coast Limited
The Blackhawk - overnight train
Make no mistake, I would love to see this happen. It’s long overdue. But has anyone at WI DOT and MinnDOT asked CP what they might require in terms of capacity expansion so that their freight schedules are not compromised? Remember, this is a single track railroad west of Duplainville.
I’ll be at the recall sig. party in Madison, WI tonight. With a new gov. we might get some workers rights back, but we will never get the high speed money back. Remember when Gov. Walker wanted some money back for trainsets? Fool, we had a chance to compete with the NEC for the newest, fast regioanl corridor between major midwestern cities. And on an existing upgrade ROW no matter.
I’m all for it. Maybe the train could service Grand Forks, ND too. The Canuks ain’t going to let us provide an outlet for Devil’s Lake, and that will forever be a problem. Amtrak, using the KO Sub, could easily cut an hour off the ‘Empire Builder’ time.
Madison, and the Commies there, don’t need no trains! They be ‘bus’ people. Sorry state, Wisconsin!
I have to agree with Mr. Streeter’s comments that it may make more sense to simply add some sort of connection from the Twin Cities to Dubuque. While supposedly there’s going to be enough ridership to justify the new “Blackhawk” route (or whatever they end up calling it) between Dubuque and Chicago, it should make the investment more affordable for everyone. Even if they opted to go with separate consists between the Twin Cities and Dubuque, I’m sure any extra units needed for breakdown coverage could pull double duty for both runs. As far as which carrier hosts the service, theoretically there should be enough abandoned right-of-way that Minnesota and Iowa could acquire to build their own line between the two points should the freight carriers balk.
This is certainly a good idea. Taking a quick look at the Builder’s current schedule, I see it takes about 8 hours to run this segment (interesting that the westbound takes 10 minutes longer; I would expect the eastbound to have ample padding into Chicago). So rounding down to 8 hours even, let’s make the westbound depart CHI at 7am, arriving MSP at 3pm. The eastbound Builder is already a morning departure from MSP, so the obvious thing is to make the new one an afternoon, say 1pm, arriving CHI at 9pm. But will that open up seats on the Builder for longer distance passengers? Or is the demand in this market for a second morning train? Also, however they do it, they’ll need two sets of equipment. Will Wisconsin pony up a couple of its new Hiawatha Talgos? I forget if Minnesota is in on the soon-to-be-placed order for bilevels for the midwest states, but if not they could add to it.
Mr. Miller, I doubt BNSF would go along with such a plan, at least without a huge outlay of public money for additional capacity. Even if you only used BNSF south of LaCrosse, they’d want big bucks. CP’s route south of LaCrescent is far too slow; you’d not only have to massively upgrade the line, you’d probably have to acquire long stretches of new right of way to straighten out the curves (even with Talgos). If you did that, though, you’d probably want to connect with the new service that will start in a couple of years between Chicago and Dubuque via CN.
Interesting reading. Early in the Amtrak era, there were two daily trains (for a brief time, also an overnighter) between Chicago and the Cities. None of them matched the running time of Milwaukee’s Hiawathas. It’s also true that almost to the coming of Amtrak, there was the skeleton of a corridor service between the Cities and Fargo or Grand Forks. The population densities have increased in that part of the world, and the highways are no better now. But getting the states and the freight railroads to go along will take some doing. I understand, however, that CPR would like the second track back west of Duplainville, and perhaps some Passenger Rail money put into those tracks would be money well spent.
What surprises me is that Governor Walker wants to be involved. I would guess that he thinks he can find a way to get Minnesota and private parties to pay for and operate the project so that he can then boast how he got the service without spending any of Wisconsin’s taxpayer’s money.
I would see this as a positive first step in improving rail service between the Twin Cities and Chicago. I seriously doubt you would see any route used other than the current route, as much as some might want other routes.
There is plenty of demand for additional transportation services and having an alternative time for the train would be beneficial. Right now the Megabus does a landslide business between these 2 endpoints and their departures are at very inconvenient times (they often fill 2 buses on their late night departures from Minneapolis).
I’m sure the study will look at the best times for end point departures. You could get by with one set of equipment if the departures were early am west from CHI and late evening from MSP (essentially an overnight service). The westbound trip would have a much more convenient arrival time in MSP, and the eastbound trip would allow for connections to all trains in CHI during the day. There seem to be plenty of folks willing to travel overnight from what I can tell.
I’d like to see a test of service via Eau Claire. The train could run the present route as far as Tomah. A connecting track of a mile or so could be built west of the station north to the UP. A few miles of track back east to Wyeville would need to be rebuilt. The train could go through the wye, back down on the southeast quadrant, then head north on the reinstalled diamond.
If I recall, Butler to Hudson on the UP, though single track at present, is graded for double, with structures in place, for the entire distance. I mean, if we really wanted to put some dollars into this and do it right. Probably too much to hope for though . . .
I’m not at all surprised Walker is trying to be involved. it is politically expedient for him at the moment. He and some of his rubber stamp legislators suddenly find themselves circling the drain (as they should be) for turning down the Madison/Milwaukee corridor money (among myriad other very good reasons). Studied nonchalance notwithstanding, they are running scared of their imminent ouster from office. Scooter Boy is, for once, simply pandering to the actual will of the people. In the unlikely event he and his minions retain power, it will be back to business as usual, which means no trains.
Finally, finally, after all the sturm and drang the obvious way forward has been proposed. HSR would be great someday, but this logical corridor anchored by not two but three major cities (Chicago, Milwaukee & Minn/StP) is a natural for greater service frequency west of Milwaukee. The Builder is a fine train but too unreliable for the regional travel market. A second train with captive equipment on an attractive schedule is very likely to be successful. And not a moment too soon.
Yes to a second train and no to pretend Governor Walker.
Bring back the Northstar!
This is a great idea. However, the train should use the CNW/UP as Gerald Krug mentioned.