Wisconsin Talgo power?

I am going to submit here that the ticket collection process has little to no impact on the time spent at an intermediate stop. Amfleet and Horizon coaches are simply not designed for rapid and safe entrance or exit. Unless the conductor is extraordinarily slow, taking the ticket and checking an ID will take less time than it takes most individuals to climb the steps into the car.

I suspect that the reason that Amtrak does not have open doors unattended by a crewman is for safety and rider assistance. Beside the delay caused by a passenger having a difficult time without assistance with heavy luggage, having an unattended door would mean that a crewman would have to move a car length to close the door before the train could depart.

The Talgo cars will mitigate some of the loading problems. The floor of the car is so low that no more than one step up is required to enter the car. Compared to existing cars, doors are half the distance apart making it at least easier for a crewman to open two doors at a stop, more if the need was apparent. Procedures for insuring that all tickets are collected could easily be established, without the need for gated access to the intermediate stations’ platforms.

For operational modeling & planning, we automatically double the platform dwell time for an Amfleet type car vs. a commuter-type car, for the equivalent number of passengers.

RWM

Very interesting. Why? Are the steps higher on the Amfleet car? Nobody needs to help much with boarding on commuter cars.

The current Talgo equipment does, as was mentioned earlier have doors at each end of each car, thus making the equivalent of a double door for one train service person to handle. Additionally, I believe the doors had commuter style buttons which would allow the Conductor to open all doors in the train from a central point, if so desired. Since a group of four doors can be opened by two trainmen, on-platform ticket collection does actually improve the boarding process. Scheduling dwell for this or any other boarding process is the obligation of the planners for the service, snd if you have thoughtful and intelligent folks to work with at your government agency, as WASHDOT’s folks were, then you get well though out ticket collection processes and dwells to support that, which do not adversely impact the schedule.

The Cascades Talgos were drawbar equipped, making it difficult, though not impossible, to add or remove cars. Individual cars were serviced in the consist, and such operations as wheel truing were also done within the consist. This required a revision in thinking by the American railroaders that handled the equipment, but Talgo’s service technicians led the way and the adjustments were relatively easy to make and are now made without a second thought.

One thing that also aided Talgo longevity was the fact that the people in the Seattle area and beyond were very proud of these trains, and most took good care not to abuse them or ruin them. The surfaces inside plus the care with which the public used them, added to their serviceability as much as the routine and heavy maintenance did.

The one thing that the Talgo brings to the table is the anti-centrifugal force system which, as proven during higher speed tests between Vancouver and Portland, allowed significantly higher speeds on curves than conventional equipment. The deceleration, speed through the curve and then the effort

Note that Amtrak’s Horizon and Amfleet coaches are all equipped with traps over the steps in the customary railroad style to handle both ground-level and high-level platforms, which all but eliminates remote operation of doors. Metra’s gallery coaches are set up for ground-level platforms only, which allows remote operation of doors. Other differences include the width of the doors, gallery coaches have double-width doors while Amtrak’s coaches do not.

The Amfleet I’s have vestibules at both ends vs. single double door on each side for the Gallery cars - a wash, I think. The Gallery cars have better steps and don’t need a train step to get to the platform though - much simpler. The Amfleet cars have automatic doors when operating at high level platforms.

Don’t believe my observations on time taken for boarding. At the minimum, count the passengers and mark the time it takes for boarding and alighting, noting the type of car and whether tickets were just checked or taken at the door before you offer your opinion.

Railway Man says dwell time is half as much for commuters; but we’re dealing with a mixed market where most are commuters or day-trippers. The time needed to board or alight is exacerbated by luggage beyond a briefcase or laptop carried by commuters.

Since steps are fewer for the Talgo, they are slightly faster boarding than Horizon or Amfleet cars. In additi

RFID’s are apparently the fashion these days. Isn’t that how the I-Pass/Speedpass auto toll collection works?

Do you suppose that a train ticket could be an RFID tag? That you could even request that passengers wear it, either as a clip-on “name tag” or as a kind of “necklace” thing that I use for my employee ID and my USB drive.

Do you suppose conductors can just go through the train and scan the passengers to make sure the fares are paid? Could commuters or regular riders have a kind of RFID that they would just be billed for their rides, just as with Speedpass on the roads?

“The Cascades Talgos were drawbar equipped, making it difficult, though not impossible, to add or remove cars. Individual cars were serviced in the consist, and such operations as wheel truing were also done within the consist. This required a revision in thinking by the American railroaders that handled the equipment, but Talgo’s service technicians led the way and the adjustments were relatively easy to make and are now made without a second thought”

One of the long-time knocks on any kind of articulated or semi-permanently coupled equipment is this matter of switching out cars, for any reason.

When the plans for Talgo were first made known by WisDOT to our local advocacy group, and this goes back a few years, the recent announcement by the Wisconsin Governer did not come from “thin air” apart from long-term DOT planning, I had asked about the drawbacks of articulated trains.

I was told that the Hiawatha, for all practical purposes, was “semi-permanently” coupled because it cost too much to switch cars in an out of the consist, and all of the coach yard space in Chicago has been given over to office building parks.

On the other hand, Train-X, TurboTrain, and Talgo all had/have “dolly wheels” or similar arrangements for uncoupling the single-axle articulated connections to do shop work on the cars. Look, even an OTR semi-trailer truck is semi-permanently coupled in that fashion, every semi trailer I know has dolly wheels, and truck drivers couple and uncouple their semi trailers all the time. I would agree that you can’t “switch” Talgo equipment, and removing a bad-order Talgo coach from a consist out on the road is a serious problem, but my understanding is that they uncouple these things in the shop all the time.

As to doing wheel maintenance on articulated trains, I saw somewhere how in France they have special shops that can swallow entire TGV trai

I am not disputing your observations as to loading time. All I have said is that the time required to lift tickets at the door is not the factor that causes the total time spent at the stop. While my opinion is not based on a thorough study of the subject, I have observed the process perhaps several hundred times over the decades that I have been riding trains.

Given that the Talgo cars are easier to step aboard and that the doors can be built for remote operation, perhaps lifting tickets at a limited number of open doors would be the factor controling the time spent at the stop. If that’s the case, perhaps Amtrak will employ a method to collect tickets on board for passengers boarding at intermediate points. It’s not rocket science.

I too was a serious doubter when I got to Seattle, but after seeing the Talgo trainsets in action, and the speed with which servicing could be accomplished, I became a believer in these trains.

Switching the cars is an argument for all fixed consist doubters, but the real question is whether the support facilities have been properly set up to maintain the equipmen without having to do much in the way of switching. If the proper facilities are or have been put in place, the Talgo equipment is as maintenance friendly and in many ways more so than conventional equipment.

Whether Wisconsin or any other entity meets with success using fixed consist equipment begings and ends with planning for maintenance and use. If the proper planning is done, the setting is created where the equipment can perform its best and thereby get the most bang for the buck.

As to the orphan factor, much knowledge has been gained through the use of the Talgos in Washington State, and if the Wisconsin Talgos come to pass the knowledge base will spread. Las Vegas trains were originally set to have Talgos some years ago and I have not heard anything to dispute the idea that use of those types of trains has been declared dead, if and when Vegas service g

From what I know about Wisconsin’s Department of Transportation and its current head, I think it is very likely that there have already been some discussions with Washington State’s DOT. Like most, the State of Wisconsin is in a tough money situation, and I don’t believe that the present state administration would have made the move to purchase the cars without a very thorough study of all aspects of the service, including maintenance.

If they take the advice of WASHDOT, learn from the mistakes and improve upon WASHDOT’s policies and procedures, and only when absolutely warranted, then they will do just fine. They also need to listen to the Talgo techs; I do not believe there were any more valuable people on the property in Seattle, relative to those trains than the folks from Spain.

The new equipment should have modifications and improvements over the originals since time allows for such things.

Will be interesting to see what goes on after delivery and what the public response is.

Today’s Trains Newswire and other sources report that Talgo has selected the former Tower Automotive facility in Milwuakee as the location for the manufacture/assembly of Wisconsin’s order for two train sets for the Hiawatha Service.

In addition to those two set, the State of Oregon has anounced plans to purchase 2 additional train sets for the Cascade Service. Wisconsin has an option to purchase two additional sets which will be used when service is expanded to Madison.

The plant is ideally located on WSOR tracks just a few miles north of the CP’s Milwaukee-Minneapolis mainline. If this also becomes the service location for the cars when they go in service it will be an easy trip (westward) from the Milwaukee train station to the plant location.

Now for the real questions.

  1. Does Oregon and Wisconsin already have the money in hand to let a construction contract?

  2. How soon can the required modifications to the Tower facility be made once a construction contract is let?

  3. How long will it take to get the first train set out of the plant.?

  4. What happens if only 4 train sets get built?

  5. Will this mess up AMTRAK’s fleet plan by building a third type rolling stock?

  6. If more get built for Wisconsin will WI get credit for returned single level cars to AMTRAK?

I don’t think it is in anyway guaranteed that Amtrak will go Talgo in a big way. My impression of the current Wisconsin Governor is he isn’t all that intelligent. He was looking at this as a jobs program more then a HSR program, IMO.

Nope, I think Amtrak is still free to persue it’s equipment needs as it wishes. I have my doubts Amtrak will go Talgo in a big way but we’ll see.

  1. Yes

  2. Reports I saw on the candidate sites in Janesville would indicate that every place Talgo looked at could be up and running fairly quick. Maybe 6 months?

  3. Ties to q. 2

  4. Talgo closes the operation.

  5. With Amtrak looking to states to provide significant funding for intercity operations, they really haven’t left themselves any say on the subject.

  6. The old cars belong to Amtrak and are provided on their dime. However, given that Wisconsin and Illinois provide funds to covering the deficit on the Hiawatha Service, it is possible that there will be a reduction in the state funds required to support the service.

I would guess that as soon as delivery dates our developed, an announcement will be made.

“I don’t think it is in anyway guaranteed that Amtrak will go Talgo in a big way. My impression of the current Wisconsin Governor is he isn’t all that intelligent. He was looking at this as a jobs program more then a HSR program, IMO.”

If the Wisconsin governor isn’t all that intelligent, I am going to start to vote for the least intellegent guys on the ballot. By getting the state to put up $43 million, he got a foreign car builder to agree to produce rail cars in Wisconsin meaning some new jobs for people who can vote. Along with that, and having a solid set of comprehensive plans prepared and presented to the US Department of Transportation, the state was able to land a federal appropriation of more than 10% of the total $8 billion put up for “High Speed Passenger Rail”.

He gets the jobs and an enhancement of a popular rail service. There is something wrong with that?

I’m pretty much in agreement with jeaton.

[quote user=“blue streak 1”]

Now for the real questions.

  1. Does Oregon and Wisconsin already have the money in hand to let a construction contract?

Wisconsin would seem to have the money to commit to the first two. Washington and Wisconsin may be a little more iffy for the next two each respectively.

  1. How soon can the required modifications to the Tower facility be made once a construction contract is let?

I won’t hazard a guess; but I’d say it would be within any mandated stimulus time frame.

  1. How long will it take to get the first train set out of the plant.?

Another interesting question; but any progress is welcome after all these years - almost certainly within two years.

  1. What happens if only 4 train sets get built?

Right now it looks like six; but Michigan desperately needs tilting equipment if they can scrape together the money. 110 mph only may be possible between Porter and Kalamazoo, but Talgos at least would make 79 mph on the rest of the line instead of being limited by curvature. With PTC, 90 mph may be allowed.

Elsewhere, Illinois could use Talgos between Chicago and Saint Louis; Missouri could use them between Saint Louis and Kansas City; and they would make Chicago-St Louis-Tulsa-Oklahoma City possible. Talgos also would be essential for routes out of Atlanta, between Chicago and Nashville and Memphis, in the Texas Triangle, the Chicago-Twin Cities and Minnesota services, in Florida, and definitely to Las Vegas. For the last, the problem is more the capacity through Cajon Pass.

Talgos might work on the Coast Line between Los Angeles and San Francisco; but I don’t know if 6 hours can be