would like to use digitrax at our club layout........others want nce....am i wrong

Model Railroader Electronics and DCC
1

hello ,

i would like to see our club use digitrax super chief system for our club layout. other prefer nce.their reasons are you can program right from the cab (in English)and dint have to remember CV numbers to program and digitrax only have 12 functions. to upgrade nce functions you only have to replace a chip in the main controller at a cost of $15.00 and digitrax you have to upgrade every cab (not sure of the cost)

i have a super chief at home and like it. I’m new to dcc and don’t know all the ins and outs so I’m no way qualified to make a good argument for them. so any one that can give me any good reasons to support digitrax.

and if any one has reasons why i may be wrong please feel free to tell me why your system may be better.

we do have common wiring where the is a common wire on the one rail is common to every thing from all the power packs to the 10 volt lighting to the, 32 volt switch machines . (did i mention our club was formed in 1949.and was powered from 2 volt cabin car batteries wired in series and still supply power for lighting and switch machines) but my super chief does work under these conditions, using bananna plugs connecting to the track and turning off the power pack for that panel. but i only run a limited number engines and don’t cross into the areas running dc from other panels.

2

What is a clun layout?

In terms of DCC, I strongly suggest you read some books before proceeding.

David B

3

sorry Dave

typo

our club layout.

and what books do you suggest

4

Any DCC books are worth while. Check out the ones published by our hosts…

David B

5

Dan,

Actually, you can’t go wrong with either company. Both make a very good product and both have their pros and cons. Once everyone has a chance to chime in here, accumulate a list of the pros and cons then present it to your club for discussion. One system is bound to be a better fit for your club for one reason or another.

Dan, is everyone in your club favorable about switching to DCC? How many other members have a DCC system and which kind to they have?

This recent thread might make a good read for you on the topic from the other side of the coin:

What don’t you like about your DCC system?

Tom

6

tom,

i did read the other post. thats what gave me the ideal to post the question. I did research the dcc systems prier to buying mine. and settled on the chief for my home layout. at the time i didn’t belong to a club, and at the suggestion of members on here, at the time i found one to join.(which turned out to be very the best advice Ive ever received,three years ago ( as a modeler and even the social aspect of the club) one of the reasons i respect the ideal of the members here.

their are 2 other members using dcc. for most the club is their only layout.

as to others wanting to switch to dcc i dint think it to big of a issue if we can, (and i do think is possible ),to have the option of switching between dc and dcc. because the club is going on 60 years old their is a lot of dc equipment the members acquired.and at least in the beginning going straight dcc would be a hard sell. with that said i think with all the new products coming out that are dcc ready. adding the decoder to the newer products wont be bad. its converting all the old.

i realize that it wont be jumping right into it because of all the switch machines (app 125) magnetic uncouples (around 100) it will be a slow process. and the first few YEARS will be a dc/dcc hybrid.

but you got to start somewhere.

7

Dan,

Given the underlined above, Digitrax would be the better option/fit for your club because none of the NCE systems - Power Cab or Powerhouse Pro - support DC. Any of the Digitrax systems - Zephyr or SEB - allow you the option of running one (1) locomotive.

Your other option would be to keep your present DC system and add a DPDT toggle switch to your layout wiring so that you can run your club layout on either DC or DCC. That might make for a smoother transition from DC over to DCC for those more reluctant to either the new technology or installing decoders in their older locomotives.

However, if you choose that route, you’re then back to figuring on the pros and cons of either system. You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses.

Tom

8

Aside from the Less Filling/Tastes Great debate (Digitrax vs. NCE), my concern would be the common rail wiring. The serious discussion that needs to happen is whether you are going to move to double gaps or not and away from the common rail wiring before going to DCC. I would highly suggest double gaps. This will likely be some work. Digitrax strongly recommends against common rail wiring. I suspect NCE and others do too.

From the Super Chief manual:

4.1 Direct Home Wiring vs. Common Rail Wiring

Digitrax strongly recommends direct home wiring where each power district and its booster are electrically isolated. This type of wiring is safer and more convenient to work with for debugging and for adding reversing sections and detection later. If you are planning to use whole layout common rail wiring, please have your dealer special order opto-isolated boosters for your layout. Note for detection and signaling wiring common rail can be used within power districts that are wired for direct home and use regular Digitrax boosters.

Remember, no matter how you control your trains, you should always use safe wiring practices.

One option, often used, is to utilize common rail wiring within a power district and double gap between districts. This may minimize the amount of wiring changes needed.

9

Even worse - if you notice in the original posting, the common rail is used for more than common train runnign power. That ABSOLUTELY needs to be seperated out before connecting ANY brand of DCC system. Converting any club-size layout is no easy task, and certainly will take time and very likely try the patience of many members. One way to derail such a project is to blow up the DCC equipment - so task 1 will have to be a near complete rewiring to get rid of the common connections. Nothing should share the DCC track power lines. Plus at any point where another booster ot circuit breaker attaches, the track should be double-gapped, no common rail even for the DCC power.

As for tastes great/less filling - if you use Digitrax tyou only have to run one telephone wire bus around under the layout to connect throttles, additional boosters, track detection, and signals. Everythign runs over the Loconet.

–Randy

10

What brand(s) of DCC systems do these other two club members have?

If two (or three) of the folks who already have DCC have the same brand, and it’s a brand that scales well to the size of the club layout, well, there’s your tiebreaker.

Steve

11

Dan,

I see a couple of issues here:

Common Rail wiring - You just have to get rid of it. And this will require ‘double gapping’ the track if you still want to run cab control - lots of work.

Running DC engines on DCC. Even though the Digitrax system allows ‘packet stretching’ - only one cab can run engines and any DC engine on the layout will be affected. Also the DC engines will ‘sing’ when they are not moving, and the motors may burn out from the stress. System performance of your DCC system many times becomes poor(DCC throttles get slow response) when someone is operation a DC engine. Our club is 100% DCC and we do not allow DC operation.

If the club has been around for a while(as this club has), I am surprised that they are even looking at DCC. You mention that only 2 other club members even have DCC? Our club is ‘new’(4 years old) and the layout was built for DCC only.

Jim

12

Not quite that simple Tom. Once you start installing things like boosters and breakers, and auto reversers, you’re doubling your wiring with a dual mode DC/DCC system. And if you happen to run 16V power through an older 12V supply…well the results aren’t pretty if it’s a large reverse current. It depends on how tolerant the 12V caps are on the 12V supply, and how tollerant to surges, reverse current. Output stages sometimes can’t handle reverse current as well.

13

I read the same thing. The common rail needs to be broken into seperate districts to protect supplies.

14

I built and wired a 20 x 40 foot HO scale club layout several years ago, and performed a lot of research when we were deciding which DCC system to purchase. Here are my thoughts on your club’s dilemma:

I wired the club layout for dual-mode operation from the very get-go. There are switches on the control panels marked ‘BLOCK/DCC’ to select between one or the other. The two can NEVER be intermixed.

A large, main power supply was built with an output capacity of 19 Volts, 35 Amps, pure, filtered, absolutely flat DC. This runs both DC block and DCC systems. There is a switch on the power supply’s control panel to select between BLOCK and DCC, so it’s always one or the other and they can never be intermixed.

All track wiring must be double wires for DCC-- no common ground wiring under any conditions!

Every siding and most of the main lines are divided into blocks for DC operation, with DPDT toggle switches on control panels to turn the various blocks and sidings on and off as necessary, and to select between two DC block hand-held controllers on each panel. Both rails are gapped at every block and siding boundary.

Cost-wise, NCE was almost $1,000 cheaper than a comparable Digitrax system. We selected the NCE Radio throttles. No controller bus wiring was necessary anywhere. This saved another $200 or so on cabling, not to mention all of the labor that would have been involved to install the controller bus.

NCE offers a 15 percent club discount – this saved us another $700 on the cost of the ProCab 5 Amp system with two 5 Amp boosters and 4 radio throttles!

Digitrax is a fine system, but in my opinion, the NCE Radio throttles are leap-years ahead in technology.

If your club performs a thorough cost analysis, including all of the extras that would be necessary with the Digitrax system, you may change your mind about which is the best for you.

That’s just my [2c]

15

That’s odd, considering that Digitrax tends to cost less than NCE. Here are some sample MSRP’s(Digitrax also offers club discounts, and whether ordering through a club or through a retailer, if you shop around you can find roughly the same discounts for both):

Digitrax 5 amp Radio Super Chief: $639.99

NCE 5 amp Radio Power Pro: $699.95

Digitrax DT400R(radio throttle): $229.99

NCE ProCab-R(radio throttle): $249.95

Digitrax UT4R(radio utility throttle): $129.99

NCE CAB04pr(radio utility thrttle): $179.95

I do need to point out that the NCE utility throttle does have the ability to control accessory decoders, and the Digitrax utility throttle doesn’t.

The Digitrax boosters and power supplies are more expensive:

Digitrax DB150 5 amp booster: $179.00

NCE PB105 5 amp booster: $159.95

The Digitrax DB150 does have an Empire Builder command station buit in.

Digitrax PS515: $49.95

NCE P515: $37.95

You can use NCE(and others) boosters and power supplies with Digitrax(the NCE and Digitrax power supplies listed above are actually the same thing).

Even if you don’t use a throttle bus(most clubs I’ve seen opt to have a throttle bus even even if they use radio so that they don’t have to buy all radio throttles), I would think you would be hard pressed you spend more on a comparably equipped Digitrax system.

16

Don,

I agree. That’s why I mentioned at the end of my post, “You might also need to run your switch machines and higher voltage devices on a separate bus or buses.”

Tom

17

[:I]Oh right you are!

Should have known you would have been on top of things. :smiley:

18

One more point: You can actually buy a Super Empire Builder starter set (DB150, UP5 and DT400) for less than the price of the individual components. Since multiple boosters/throttles were purchased, you could buy the SEB sets instead of the components and save even more.

Steve

19

No problem, Don. You and the others are still head and shoulders above my own knowledge about the ins and outs of DCC. I’m always learning but feel I’m still only grasping a fraction of it.

Tom

20

If a club is just starting up, it might pay to contact either Digitrax and/or NCE to see if they offer a start-up package that would include a discount for members for a set period of time to get their controllers. I’d bet that one or both of them might. You can also try it with a LHS who would have better contact with the manufacturers/suppliers.