Would you spend an extra $100.00

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

With all the quality control issues on steam, diesel and other MR related items, would you spend an extra $100.00 to buy a Loco that was built in the U.S. or Canada or Germany or some other first world country knowing you would get rock solid performance for years to come? I think I would pay $400.00 or maybe even $500.00 instead of $ 300.00 just to avoid the frustration alone. How much more can it cost to get top quality? Just buying a built at home (or close to home) is worth a lot to me. What would it cost to get a $300.00 loco made in China, built in the U.S.

Brent

2

Brent,

First I have hardly ever paid $300, let alone $400 or more for any of my locos. My most expensive single piece is a Rivarossi 2-6-6-6 for which I paid $295. A few others have been in the two hundred + range. Most have only been in the $100 to $200 range and many have been less than $100.

My roster is mostly Bachmann Spectrum steam, Proto steam, some BLI/PCM steam, and 1st generation diesels from Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, and some Bachmann. I have well over 100 powered units. If the prices where higher, I would likely have less pieces and spent the same money.

None are DCC, none are sound (anymore). I run on DC and don’t like onboard sound.

My point is this, the “retail” prices of these locos mean nothing, many of the locos I own have “retail” prices from $250-$500. What really matters is what you can buy them for. I bought most of mine new, yes, from discounters, on sale, on closeout, whatever.

Even if the manufacturers could make these items here and keep the retail prices within the additional 25% you suggest (I doubt they could), they would also more than likely have to get away from the deep wholesale discounts now inplace that allow a Bachmann loco with a $225.00 list price to be commonly sold for $130.00.

The current sale at Factory Direct trains is a perfect example. BlueLine Mikado’s, two for the price of one, or $125 each. I have two already, dollar cost averaged, that’s all I paid - $125 for a loco with a $250 retail price.

So the real price increase of domistic production would be 50-100% or more and sales would plumit.

As to quality, I have had no serious problems with the quailty of any of the locos mentioned above. And, when I have had problems the product was fixed or replaced with one that worked just fine. Why would I pay more?

Sheldon

3

Brent,One word…NO!!

Why? There is no guarantee higher prices would end any QC problems.

4

While I am willing to pay extra for quality, I think I already get pretty good quality in S. Locomotive prices range from about $200 Diesel DC to $600 Steam DCC with Tsunami Sound MSRP. Brass is higher as are some high end kits.

I don’t think where they are made is as important as the quality control of the importer/manufacturer.

Enjoy

Paul

5

The last two expensive locos I bought new were both from the far east. China and Japan respectively. Together they cost near $300. Neither one ran very well. One is a shelf queen and I traded the other one off (the other party already knew it had problems). The locos were a Kato RSC2 and an Athearn Genesis 4-6-2. This wasn’t the first time I had bad luck with expensive trash. I’ve had several BLI’s that didn’t cut the mustard either. I gave them away long ago.

6

There is the point----when you outsource the first thing you lose control over is your QC. It becomes more difficult to maintain that QC, and for that reason----It is way better overall to do the jobs here in NA.—remember also–there is less regulation over there—hence—I’m also not so sure QC DOESN’T suffer from the lack of the regulation.

I’m not so sure Importers have the same kind of control as the mfger.

7

There are debates going on all over the place about something called regional sustainable economies. These would have an impact on our RR cottage industries. If that will help in keeping QC up then fine. Jobs will stay here.

8

Many moons ago, some gallant entrepeneur had the idea that a high-quality, high-end model manufacturing operation could be established on an Indian reservation, thereby keeping the money and jobs in the US and providing income to a group where income was in chronically short supply. (At the time the tribes had not discovered the loophole in the law that allowed them to host casinos on their land.)

If anyone has ever marketed locomotives from such a source, I’ve never heard of it.

I won’t say that the original poster’s idea is impossible (which I define as, “I haven’t done it yet.”) I will say that I consider it highly improbable.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

9

A simular topic like this was brought up a couple of years ago and went into the politics of outsourcing and got axed by Bergie.[2c]

10

I won’t get into the argument about street cost. Let’s just say that the comparison is between a $200 loco with DCC and sound built “somewhere else” versus basically the same loco built in North America for $300…

For me, it would matter what the prototype was and how much the model advanced the state of the art over any potentially competing models. If it was competitive and something I wanted, yes, I think I’d be interested. The real question is whether or not quality would be better. It would have to be, but if the company building it was able to consistently offer such qualities in the models they release, I think it would be a financially viable project.

Why do I think so? Because of Kadee. There were – and still are doubters – about whether their HO RTR rolling stock fairly commands the relatively similar premium over similar products from others. Just note that the difference seemed substantial when Kadee first started producing them. Now it’s not such a great difference, with so many others offering RTR. The others are molded here (in many cases) but assembled overseas. Kadee has raised it’s MRSP just a little, while the others are fast catching up in price, but still produced overseas.

I was skeptical at first myself, but have since invested in a number of Kadee cars. One can only buy and practically use so many cars, so choosing to buy fewer, better, but somewhat more expensive cars (in most respects) simply slows the rate of growth of the rolling stock inventory. It’s clear that model railroaders have chosen enough Kadees over other offerings to make it a financially viable product line. I suspect a similar approach would work with motive power.

11

Why do you assume a US-built model would be better-quality than one made overseas?

And no, I wouldn’t pay $100 more just to claim I “buy American.”

12

A straight answer would be, No!

It’s not a matter of foreign made = bad.

US made = good - that is far to simple an aproach.

It’s true that factory workers in asian countries get paid much, much less than those in an equivelent US based work force. It’s not nessesarily true that a return to local US manufacture would automaticaly show and improved level of quality and manufacture - should there be such a reduced level of quality and reliability as you suggest, Batman, in models made in Asia.

It is important to understand the numbers - I don’t, I’m kind of just feeling my way around in the dark here, but I do know that a model locomotive made in, say China, a low wage economy, probably costs many times less to produce than the same model being made in the US - a high wage economy.

The Chinese built model will enable the US company for who the model is being made in China to maintain its margins - or increase them even - compared to a US built model that will see a smaller return or the price will need to increase to a point that will show the same financial return as the China built model. An addition of $100.00 dollars to the price tag may or may not do that - it may take more.

Having to pay a notional $100 additional dollars to buy the same locomotive manufactured in the US, as is currently being made in China or SE Asia would not nessesarily offer improved quality and reliability, but, by nessesity, would instead be a much simpler and a cheaper and cheerful casting. Something would have to give - I’m not too sure what that would be though. But there would need to be changes to what is being currently offered and it maybe that these changes may not be popular with end user hobbiests.

Bruce[:)]

13

I am willing to pay a premium for getting a premium product, in terms of quality, regardless where it is manufactured. I cannot expect a cheap product to be of superior quality. If the quality of products made in China is better than just acceptable, prices are also up. What I do not like at all, is paying a high price for a product I believe to be made anywhere else than China, only to find out that it is not made where I expected it to be. This is, IMO, fraud and most of the big name suppliers are guilty of it.

14

IF the quality of a USA made loco at a higher price would guarantee me a perfect running long lasting loco, I could, I suppose, be willing to pony up a higher price.

But no matter where built, there will be such issues.

If the USA produced all that that was all that, we would be in far less a pickle than we are, and people would be flocking to buy USA goods everywhere.

USA made does not equal quality.

Neither does Japan made, Chech made, or China made, moon made or anywhere made.

What DOES equal quality is quality control and a willingness/desire to produce goods that are 100% and durable.

15

Why assume a thing/idea called quality exists even?

It may not necessarily have to be quality but the idea that control of something called Quality Control may be more of an issue—it could be argued that placing the process outside of the country of origin actually increased the cost of manufacture.

Then again, one could argue that the demand for an illusion called quality has jacked up the prices so high that we need to go the opposite direction. Get rid of the delusional idea that there is a thing called quality—let the builders just build the dang things and we learn how to make the things work according to our own notions of quality—to wrap up: Do It Yourself

16

Exactly. The thing people don’t realize about China is that they will make exactly what you want, for good or ill. The same factories that crank out cheap $400 Gateway laptops also make $3000 Macbook Pros. They just make the product to the specs the company wants. A well engineered model speced out with quality material and made by a reputable manufacturer will be of equal quality whether it’s made in Shanghai or Syracuse.

17

For me, no. I would love to be able to buy Made In Canada items, maybe even Made in the USA but as noted, that does not mean it will be a better product. Look at some of the issues with Made in North America cars.

To me, its about the best value for what dollars I have to spend on my hobby. That may mean an expensive item but it may also mean trying to get consignment type bargains like the Red Caboose gon I just picked up for $20 CDN (sticker was $26.95, US).

Also, with the way labeling laws are right now, I am not even sure you could count on the label. The above noted gon is labeled as “Assembled in China” and “Made in the USA”. So which is it?

18

And then there is the issue of deminishing return. Regardless of where something is made, making it better will cost more.

A BMW 5 series performs better than my new Ford Taurus and may (only may mind you) be more durable. BUT, is the increased price worth those improvements? If the Ford is $30,000 and the BMW $60,000 is the BMW twice as good, fast, durable, etc. I think not.

So if the Ford performs in a manner that is satisfactory to its owner, than it is a much better value.

The current crop of model locomotives perform more than adiquitely for me, and as long as companies like Bachmann replace the occasional dud and Walthers continues to send out parts for non working Proto stuff, and I can make minor ajustments and improvements to these models to suit my needs, they need not be any better or anymore expensive.

And for the record, on this topic, I have had to make just a many “field modifications” to the pricer BLI/PCM models I own as I have to my large fleet of Bachmann Spectrum - So which is a better value?

Sheldon

19

If one could even revisualize the “pride in our work” ethic.

And here is one of those dang intangibles that we do not see around much. Quality was something that one took pride in --in and of itself. It can be thought of–but only in terms of nostalgia—

20

I find the US laws on that are a little hard to understand. I know for example Fender guitars in Los Angeles has another plant just south of the border in Sonora, Mexico. Some guitars are built in one plant or the other, but some are partly “made” in both plants. There’s some formula I guess relating to where the parts were made and where they were assembled to determine if the qualify for the “Made in USA” labelling, like if the parts are mostly US made but it’s assembled in Mexico it can be labelled “Made in USA”…or maybe if the parts are Mexican but it’s assembled in the US?? It gets confusing.

In any case, I find cost doesn’t mean quality. Yes I probably would pay more for a better guarantee of quality but it doesn’t seem to be connected. I have a couple of fairly expensive Proto engines sitting in boxes because they either never ran well or over time quit running at all; meanwhile less expensive Atlas and Spectrum engines do yeoman service on the model railroad day after day.