Those of you who did not live through WWII and had no experience of railroading during that period are understandably incredulous about tales of 70mph coal trains being normal operating procedure on the N&W and possibly elsewhere. The railroad culture was very different during that period. There were no officials out with radar units to track overspeeding engineers. Every railroad man and woman was impressed that their job was as important to winning WWII as a front-line Infantryman and any slacking or lack of full cooperation could mean lives lost at the front. Dispatchers always worked to move traffic most expeditiously, whether it was a coal train or a peddler freight or whatever. Fuel economy was not even thought about in normal operatons during war on any Class I, possibly yes on shortlines, like the Suncook Valye which did run pretty leasurely, but not on Class I’s. Keepig the traffic moving was really the only consideration.
When a through freight came through a division point, it would stop for inspection and usually four car-knockers would inspect, two on each side, one from the front and one from the rear, checking for hot journals (with equpment to repack if necessary), anything loose, etc. On some lines each section crew, and this was an eight-our full time job of four of five people, with overtime if necessary to get a particular problem fixed, had responsibility for only five to ten miles of RofW. working between trains to tamp and align and keep the jointed rail track in as exact alignment as possible.
The Silver Meteor, Champion, and Southerner, all then all-coach streamliners with dedicated equipment, almost always left Penn Station with a specially modified PRR round-top boxcar (and only one on a specific train), with modified Andrew freightcar trucks for high speed and trainline pipes and wiring for steam and communication, between the GG1 and the baggage-dorm car, staying south of Washin
Most of us agree the notion that coal trains regularly did 70 mph is nonsense-- but if you look at a 1950s N&W timetable I think you won’t find anything prohibiting 70 with any freight train. As I recall the timetable didn’t care if you did 75 mph, even with a Y6.
To Big Jim: I know of one N&W fireman who was black. This was back in the 1940’s and his name was Sam Johns. He was the grandfather of Columbia Md. businessman and toy train collector Tony Lash, who’s been featured in “Classic Toy Trains” magazine and a TM video. As a boy Tonys grandfather got him rides on the Y6’s from Roanoke to Bluefield. What a lucky (and well behaved!) young man Tony must have been!
To Dave Klepper: Thank you so much for the history lesson! There’s so much of the WW2 era that’s never made it into the books, and probably never will. Thanks for sharing your memories with us!
The limit it clearly stated was 78 mph for passenger and the same for freight between Norfolk and Poe in 1953, and the same between Kenova and Columbus in 1954.
The title of this thread is “WWII and High Speed Steam” and clearly 1953 does not fall between 1941 - 1945. The timetable effective April 1, 1945 only allows a maximum of 50mph for classes A ,K & E in this same area of the Norfolk Div… The highest these same classes were allowed is 60 between Clay & Montvale and Kinney & Forest.
Y’s were at their best pulling/shoving hard @ 10-20 mph, but they were often doing more. Have video of them moving smartly at what must be close to 45 mph.
My memories about railroads during WWII are pretty accurate. They were my main interest in life, and often during classes at Columbia Grammar School and its highschool, I would “daydream” about experiences in riding trains, reviewing memories, instead of listening to the teacher. Math was different because I wanted to an engineer who would design locomotives. In 1952 I did spend a summer doing useful work for EMD in LaGrange, but Professor Balsbow (Balsbau?) at MIT, my Transportation Planning professor said: “David, railroads have no future in the USA. If you want to be a railway electrification engineer, go to France and become a Frenchman.” Meanwhile, I found Leo Beranek’s courses on acoustics (taken to make my hi-fi better) so fascinating that I became an acoustical engineer, and my Army (1955-1956, after ROTC at MIT 1949-1953) service had me testing long-range loudspeakers, agent-type mineature radios, and a complete mobile TV broadcasting station, among other similar matters. And lots of opportunity to visit the Hamlet Seabord yards and ride the Seabord and Atlantic Coast LIne trains, including reviving a childhood friendship with ACL Dining Car Steward Jim Masters. My first long-distance trip by train by myself was at the age of 10 during the school spring break. A Mister Eppler, a German Jewish refugee living in our family home’s basement apartment, went with me on the PRR to Washington, then went off to the State Department on his own business. I looked at the departure board and then boarded the C&O train to Charlottesville. At the C&O (not the Union) Station, I called my relatives, and Sally, the maid, the wife of the ex-N&W fireman, told me to catch the Rugby Road bus to Rugby Place. All at age ten in 1942. The ex-fireman had a responsible position in a maintenance at UofVirginia. But he missed his old job and loved to talk trains.
Dave, enjoyed your last post! Living here in Richmond Va. I’ve been told by those who were there that during WW2 train frequency through the town of Ashland on the RF&P was at least one every 15 minutes, both north and south. It was a railfans heaven on earth, or would have been if the reason for it wasn’t in the back of everyone’s mind at the time. Old RF&P veterans get a laugh every time CSX moans about having to schedule Amtrak trains along the line. “Gee,” they say. “WE never had any trouble mixing freight and passengers!” Ashlands still a great train watching spot. The old station’s still there, with a nice RF&P museum in it. And if you’re a model railroader there’s “Train Town” hobbies right down the street.
And won’t the oldtimers tell you that the RF&P was also pretty much a one-speed railroad where everything rolled along at about 60 mph, merchandize, peddlers, and passenger trains, and even coal? One thing I could never figure out as a kid was that a few times 4-8-4’s did replace diesels on the Silver Meteor and Champion northbound, but I never saw one on the point at Washington Union southbound. Either, the cut-off diesels went south from Richmond on a lessor train, like the Havana Special and Everglades, the Sunland and Plamland, or the RF&P used them on one of these trains northbound to Washington after whatever needed servicing was acomplished. If you have some friends who can answer that question, I would thank you.
I have a good picture of Ashland in my mind. Many times I was at the rear vestibule looking out as we traveled the center reservation in the main street. And Doug Riddel did keep me up to date on the use of the station as the town museum and visitors center.
On the Soutthern railroad, on the other hand, I did see a Pacific, green and gold splender and all, on the point of the diesel, once northbound for the Southerner, and once northbound on the Tennesean, at Charloteseville. Never saw this on an RF&P, ACL, or SAL passenger train, although I did see freight diesels and steam together on frieghts,. but not on the RF&P. My impression was that double-heading was very rare or non-existant on the RF&P main line.
I remember the Richmond streetcar system very well. The ex Eastern-Mass Bradly two-window front lighweights on Highland Park Hull Street, and the couble-truck Birneys on Broad, Broad and Main, and Ginter Park, the latter the line I rode most often. Some double-truck Birneys were probably second hand from Providence, RI, but some were always Richmond cars . These cars were all blue with silver or white trim and lettering . Then there wer
Dave, as far as no steamers on RF&P southbounds out of Washington Union Station the only thing I can surmise is that RF&P’s first series of 4-8-4’s were a little too big to enter Washington proper, the clearances would’nt allow it. As far as others are concerned I’ll have to hit the books. One thing is certain, the RF&P was a class act, and a highly coveted job for the locals. As a matter of fact, Richmonders used to say that RF&P stood for “Relatives, Friends, and Parents”, the meaning of which was you had to know someone to get a job there! My mother told me the Moran tugboat company in New York was the same way.
The use of steam in and out of WASH may be complicated by several factors. Some one with unlimited resources needs to verify these items.
I seem to remember seeing a pre AMTRAK RR map of DC showing the track from CP Virginia ( Where the current CSX track bears into Virginia ave tunnel) - Wash Union Station as owned by SOU RR??. The map also showed some track from POT yard across Long Bridge as owned by SOU and PRR??? By the way Long Bridge was a draw (Swing?) thru FDR so he could cruise the Potamac.
I know SOU operated smokeless steamers from WASH - Alexandria due to DC anti smoke regs.
If RF&P and C&O operated their own smokeless or used SOU’s I have no idea? See also below about GG-1s.
I remember reading sometime before AMTRAK that 1 set of SOU diesel engineers & firemen ran only WASH - ALEX for a one full days’ pay??? That would lead to conclusion that during steam days the engine crews only ran same distance??
What does this mean as to how RF&P engine crews operated???
Did SOU sell their CP Virginia - WASH U Staion track to AMTRAK and when???
Once AMTRAK crews took over operating the trains from the various RRs did the Engine crews then run thru to/from WASH??
Some of the more exclusive Florida trains had their engines changed to GG-1s and PRR engine crews at Pot yard and bypassed WASH entirely.
Could it be that all Florida trains during steam years changed to GG-1s at POT and proceed to WASH Union?? If so CAT would have been installed CP Virginia to WASH??
Clearances from CP Virginia to WASH station should have been no problem as superliner equipped Cardinals have operated now thru the tunnel??
But I DID ride behind lots of steam in and out of Washington. 1. All C&O trains, always a Pacific. 2. All Southern trains except the Tennesean and Southerner, also always a Pacific. 3. The Havanna Special, Everglades, Palmland and Sunland on the RF&P, including the great 4-8-4’s. (Also, although I did not ride it, I believe the “Blue and Grey” was also pulled by steam, and usually a 4-8-4, but possibly a Pacific. And on one occasion at least and probably two on the Florida streamliners, a 4-8-4 took us from Acca to Washington Union Station, northbound. My understanding was that the track to Alexandria was dispatched by the RF&P. Ownership is another matter entirely. Someone may wish to check on this. It may be that there was a dispatcher rotation.
The C&O used Pacifics east of Charlottesville on both trains to Newport News and to Washington. The Greenbriers, the 4-8-4’s, ran west from Charlottesville. The Newport News and Washington sections were combined at the Charlottesville C&O station, and the Greenbiers ran west from there, usually stopping at the Charlottesville Union Station as well. C&O and Southern tickets werre interchageable to Charlottesville. I usually traveled on a PRR-Southern ticket. That way if there was space (very seldom) at train time, I could return on the Southerner or Tennesean. The C&O had comfortable (reclining seat?) six-wheel truck air-conditioned coaches on the George Washington, but the other C&O trains and Southern trains had plain-Jane coaches no better than a classic PRR P-70. Many of my trips had multiple southern destinations, such as going to Charlottesville, then over to Richmond, then to a stopover in Washington with Aunt Sue (A WAAC with an important Washington job in WWII), and then to N