Aren’t you pretty much limited to the size trains you run on your layout by the size of your yards? Running long trains just to run long trains excepted? My one yard will hold about 9 to 10 cars on the A/D track, and I only have two other tracks to make/break up trains. Something else this newbie has wondered about… when it comes to industries served by my fledging railroad, I’m wondering if I should put in a coal mining business and have long strings of coal filled cars if I don’t have another business such as a large power plant to deliver them to unless they’re to be delivered somewhere off the layout. Am I thinking right or all wrong about this?
Don’t hold me to it, but I THINK as a general rule, your yard lead should be as long as your longest train. You have to have one yard track that can support the longest train you plan to run.
A lot depends on the make-up of your layout. Other than staging, I have no yards. I have plenty of industrial sidings, some of which ship goods to other industries on the layout, while others ship to, or receive from, off-line industries. And while my layout is DC, with usually only me as an operator, and with only one train running at a time, my longest train length is determined by the length of my passing sidings. I also like to run coal trains with loose loads, but I have neither mine nor powerplant. The loads arrive by carfloat and then are passed along by a (barely) modelled interchange. The carfloat is represented by a single staging track. After the loads arrive on my railroad, suitable locomotives are coupled on, then the train moves, more-or-less non-stop over the layout. The one hitch is that the locos (steam) need to be turned near the mid-point of the trip and then swapped end-for-end with the caboose, in order to continue to the powerplant, the “final” destination, which is another staging track. The trip is scheduled tri-weekly, with empty moves on alternating days. The general freight staging tracks hold 15 or 16 cars each, while the coal mine/carfloat/powerhouse tracks both hold about 22 hoppers and a caboose. Coal train length is limited by weight (“live” loads) to 12 cars. “Normal” freight train length is also 12 or 13 cars, limited by passing siding length, but if I choose to run trains sequentially, without bothering with opposing moves, I often run 20 or 25 car trains, with lots of en-route switching of industries. In this scenario, the passing sidings can be used as runaround tracks for switching facing-point spurs. I also occasionally run longer trains just to see them run, but these are limited by exteme curvature and heavy grades. Minimum radius is 30", although most are 34" - 36", with some even wider. The problem is that longer trains are strung around s
I simply split my longest trains between two arrival and two departure tracks. Not sure if it conforms to any official rules, but it works fine for me.[:)]
Sometimes the prototype will use a trick with short yards called “doubling the train”. Just split the train in two and have it take two yard tracks.
Of course, you’ll now need twice the yard tracks as before, but in some cases, it can help.
If you want to know lots of insight about track lengths and what you can and can’t run on your railroad, see my article Layout Design Analysis on my web site:
http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.32
[quote user=“doctorwayne”]
A lot depends on the make-up of your layout. Other than staging, I have no yards. I have plenty of industrial sidings, some of which ship goods to other industries on the layout, while others ship to, or receive from, off-line industries. And while my layout is DC, with usually only me as an operator, and with only one train running at a time, my longest train length is determined by the length of my passing sidings. I also like to run coal trains with loose loads, but I have neither mine nor powerplant. The loads arrive by carfloat and then are passed along by a (barely) modelled interchange. The carfloat is represented by a single staging track. After the loads arrive on my railroad, suitable locomotives are coupled on, then the train moves, more-or-less non-stop over the layout. The one hitch is that the locos (steam) need to be turned near the mid-point of the trip and then swapped end-for-end with the caboose, in order to continue to the powerplant, the “final” destination, which is another staging track. The trip is scheduled tri-weekly, with empty moves on alternating days. The general freight staging tracks hold 15 or 16 cars each, while the coal mine/carfloat/powerhouse tracks both hold about 22 hoppers and a caboose. Coal train length is limited by weight (“live” loads) to 12 cars. “Normal” freight train length is also 12 or 13 cars, limited by passing siding length, but if I choose to run trains sequentially, without bothering with opposing moves, I often run 20 or 25 car trains, with lots of en-route switching of industries. In this scenario, the passing sidings can be used as runaround tracks for switching facing-point spurs. I also occasionally run longer trains just to see them run, but these are limited by exteme curvature and heavy grades. Minimum radius is 30", although most are 34" - 36", with some even wider. The problem is that longe
Ken, as long as it works! [:)]
Thanks for the link and the help, Joe. I’ll give it a read!
Joe, thanx for ‘legitimizing’ my earlier post![swg]
At the local UP yard, they regularly double the train that goes to Roseville. Unfortunately, that train now almost always leaves while I am at work, so I am not sure if they still do this.
You’re right about the carfloat, Jarrell. My (barely) modelled interchange partner is the prototype Toronto, Hamilton,& Buffalo, which ran a steam powered carfloat (lake boat) between Ashtabula, Ohio and Port Maitland, Ontario, mostly carrying coal hoppers. The TH&B brings the loads from the far side of Port Maitland (staging) to the modelled portion of the same town. The loose loads refer to my choice of load for the coal hoppers. This is a loose, granular material that is used as locomotive traction grit, instead of sand, in the diesel locomotives of the steel plant where I used to work. It’s about the size of medium/coarse HO scale ballast, black in colour, with a bit of a “sparkle” to it, more similar in appearance to anthracite than bituminous coal, but it looks pretty good. Those 12 loaded Athearn 34’ hoppers and a four ounce caboose make into a train of 100 ounces weight, which for me is an enjoyable challenge to move around all those curves and overly steep grades, without re-scenicing the layout with loose"coal". I also enjoy wringing better performance out of my locos, so these two interests tie in well together. The “opposing moves” refer to trains moving, or intended to move, in the opposited direction to the train that I’m operating at the present time. As a lone operator, running DC, it’s my practice to run only one train at a time. This is usually done in turn: that is, one train runs until it has done all of its scheduled work and has arrived at its destination, then another train takes its turn. On occasion, I’ll run a mixed (freight and passenger) train at the same time as a local freight, taking turns running each from one town to the next, sometimes in the same direction, and other times in opposing directions. Eventually, both trains may end up in the same town, necessitating either a passing move or a runaround. I like to keep the pace leisurely, as I’m modelling a secondary main line.
I’d say that the size of your yards (length of arrival/departure tracks) dictates the length of the trains you’ll switch, even with doubling. The longest train you can run will be determined by the length of your longest staging tracks.
If you have a small yard, use it as a terminus for locals that are down to a short car count when they arrive with loads (and requested empties) for local and nearby industries or interchange tracks. Meanwhile, the cars running between division points go rumbling past in those longer freights that run from staging to staging and only stop to meet passenger trains or opposing freights.
My scheme, which has been incorporated into three layouts so far, not counting the one just beginning to be built, calls for several through freights per ‘day’ that only stop to change engines (catenary to combustion, or vice versa,) at the main yard, a smaller number that drop cuts of cars for local classification, and several locals each way that either originate or terminate. The arrival/departure track can handle the longest through freight (which has to be out of the way of passenger movements while changing engines or swapping cuts of cars.) The lead is long enough to take a complete local (less brake van,) or about half the maximum through freight length. Yard body tracks can accumulate a cut long enough to stick on a through freight that swaps cars, or about half the length of a local. I do have more body tracks than you have, but I’m also dealing with interchange traffic.
Still in my scheme, coal originates on my short line as either unit trains (short, not 100-car monsters) or loose cars. Unit trains are interchanged as such, and proceed directly to down staging as soon as the motors are ready to take them away. Loose cars are routed by waybill, some up in locals, some down in locals, a few to on-line industries. Locals arriving from up staging with coal loads pass those loads either to down
Whew! Wayne, you’ve got a seriously good looking layout there! Thanks for taking the time to answer and especially the pictures, they’re always worth a thousand. Your weathering looks great on both structures and cars, maybe one day… [:)]
[quote user=“tomikawaTT”]
I’d say that the size of your yards (length of arrival/departure tracks) dictates the length of the trains you’ll switch, even with doubling. The longest train you can run will be determined by the length of your longest staging tracks.
If you have a small yard, use it as a terminus for locals that are down to a short car count when they arrive with loads (and requested empties) for local and nearby industries or interchange tracks. Meanwhile, the cars running between division points go rumbling past in those longer freights that run from staging to staging and only stop to meet passenger trains or opposing freights.
My scheme, which has been incorporated into three layouts so far, not counting the one just beginning to be built, calls for several through freights per ‘day’ that only stop to change engines (catenary to combustion, or vice versa,) at the main yard, a smaller number that drop cuts of cars for local classification, and several locals each way that either originate or terminate. The arrival/departure track can handle the longest through freight (which has to be out of the way of passenger movements while changing engines or swapping cuts of cars.) The lead is long enough to take a complete local (less brake van,) or about half the maximum through freight length. Yard body tracks can accumulate a cut long enough to stick on a through freight that swaps cars, or about half the length of a local. I do have more body tracks than you have, but I’m also dealing with interchange traffic.
Still in my scheme, coal originates on my short line as either unit trains (short, not 100-car monsters) or loose cars. Unit trains are interchanged as such, and proceed directly to down staging as soon as the motors are ready to take them away. Loose cars are routed by waybill, some up in locals, some down in locals, a few to on-line industries. Locals arriving from up staging with coal loads pas
As Joe says, it is more common than you think on the prototype to double a train at the initial terminal. So having yard tracks as long as the longest train is a nicety and not a necessity. The key to train length is passing track length.
Clinch has this exactly right. Passing track length has huge effect on train length.
Also staging track length is a significant factor. It’s one thing to double a train in a visible yard, and quite another to double trains in and out of hidden staging yards.
In order to help you take all this into consideration when you plan your layout, I’ve collected all these thoughts (and more) into my Layout Design Analysis article. If you analyze any track plan with this method, you will learn a ton about how the track plan will be to operate (and will find operation problems) well before you ever build it.
See: http://siskiyou-railfan.net/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.32
Jacon12, Another, often overlooked possibility is one or more long staging tracks, (maybe hidden?) having the long train as a run thru one trip and dropping/picking up a block of cars on another trip. jc5729
One thing about passing track length: you can also use a “double saw” maneuver (I think it is called) to allow two trains to pass each other on a passing track if they are longer than the passing track itself. So, with a little back-and-forth action, your biggest train can be anything less than twice the length of your longest passing siding–assuming you want to be able to run two trains at once.
One thing to remember if a prototype train exceeds the passing track capacity it is HELD short of the passing siding until the shorter train enters the passing siding.This is not unusual when a train exceeds the normal train length due to traffic densities…Also doubling the yard is done routinely…However…There are guide lines govern these moves.
Jet:
Point granted. There’s no question a double-saw-by maneuver allows two trains that are both too large for a passing siding to get by each other. But this maneuver takes lots of cutting the train apart into pieces and maneuvering those pieces back and forth.
Designing your layout so a double-saw-by is the normal way trains pass is not how the prototype does it. The prototype makes the passing sidings long enough to hold typical train lengths.
Resorting to a double-saw-by once in a while can be interesting and fun – and even the prototype will do this in a pinch. But doing this maneuver all the time means your mainline is clogged bigtime.