Everybody tries to arbitrarily apply signal aspects and indications from other roads to this situation when they are as useless as trying to fit Ford rods in a GM product. Most of the indications listed here are bogus…slow, med, etc. speed…crap! I have a current UP SSI in front of me. The double yellow’s indication states:Proceed prepared to advance on the diverging route at next signal at prescribed speed thru turnout. Name: Approach Diverging. Yellow Green: Proceed. Speed passing next signal must not exceed 50. Name: Approach clear 50. In all of these scenarios posed by the resident non railroaders, nobody differentiates an absolute from intermediate signal (big difference when it is red). The bottom line is KNOW YOUR TERRITORY. As I have said before, Eastern RRs and Western RRs signaling aspects and indications share very little in common. If somebody comes on here asking what a Red/Flashing yellow means on the NS, I wouldn’t jump up and say, “oh that means Diverging approach medium,” because that is what its name is on my RR. If you are gonna deliver info you should be accurate about it.
i work for 1 railroad with 3 different classes of signals. chessie, seaboard, and now conrail signals. There are places that the signals don’t just tell us to go or stop or slow down to cross over they space us out and in some places they are still set up for when there were cross overs back in the wooden wheel days . The "railroad’ honestly has no clue what to do about the signal systems because some of them are seriously messed up and it takes a pileup or the fra to catch it. Crews young and old work over the same territory and see the same signals time and time again, untill one day they see a different signal that they don’t understand since they have never passed before. Is it because they are tired or stupid or is it because its on a small piece of railroad that is left from 3 mergers and the signals are backwards from all 500-1000 miles of railroad that they are qualified on . Maybe if it was just dark we wouldn’t have the troubles but now the fra is really putting the hurt on the dark territory. I know maybe they get a guy like at the airport with the flashlights with the cones directing traffic. Naaa. Almost everywhere on csx has to call signals on the radio, but we don’t have to on our local divisions BUT the conductor must keep a log and write them down. some conductors ask for the speed if they don’t have a speedometer i like to lie and tell i’m speeding and see if they right it down lol bottom line WE have to care about our safety the railroad doesn’t
Jeff wrote: “The present setup works just fine, thank you.”
Gee Jeff I was thinking, it the present setup did work fine this thread (and all the comments about costs, knowing your routes versus, using ‘simple’ signaling versus complex signaling, etc,) would not exist. 
The current signaling system IS simple…when you run on different RRs trackage is when it gets a little confusing. That said, all of the signal changes/deviations are well published and made available to us via Div. General order, or the foreign RR’s own instructions and timetables are made available to us. If a signal is moved, it is listed on our GTBs as a Form C or a TCM or it is stated in a General Notice or General Order. The information is there. We get paid to stay in the know. Crazydiamond…are you a rail?
Hi ironken,
No I am not ‘a rail’. I am simply an observer who has done lots of reading about signaling all over the world. I posted an ‘idea’ in the previous page, and I’m sure this idea has been previously considered and defeated for various reasons. Other than that my comments on this site will really be limited simply because I don’t know enough to comment. I do find the various signaling systems interesting and the “yea and nea” debates are also great to read. Someday when I build a model railroad, I hope to incorporate a lot of what ye tell me in here.
Diamond, its really not that bad. As Chief stated, it gets a little hairy where mergers meet. I can’t say for sure how other lines work, but, on our RR as I said, the signals are defined in writing and made readily available. Also as Chief said, it is up to the crews to keep themselves safe. The info is there, we just have to apply it. By no means am I pro company. I just believe that we have to take responsibility to interpret these things. If these issues didn’t exist, there would be no need for a 2 man crew or even a 1 man crew. Job insurance!
I will say this too…I believe having one universal (North America wide) signal system, that communicates great amounts of information to the engineers should be, in my mind (with zero expereince in the real rail world) much better then a simple signal system that depends on engineers knowing their track. Besides look at it from a career perspective…if you know you can leave your job in the Southern US (for example) and take up that job that you always wanted in the Northern US, or up here in Canada, and can immediatly be a vauled employeed because you do not need to relearn the signals, I would think that be a good thing. Does a solid robust signal system not bring better and consistent information to the engineer behind the snowed up window?
It like me deciding to drive to the USA and visit all that your great country has to offer…but…what if your traffic lights were differents, and your signage were different. I’d be in a crash no time at all.
Remember, K.P. started this thread by presenting us with a scenario of signals displaying something he feels would cause confusion, at the risk of leading to a dangerous situation. One of the key fuctions of signals are to help prevent a dangerous situation. The fact that there is confusion, and the numerous opinions in this thread prove it, leads me to think improvements can be made.
You’re right ironken, it is up to all of ye to read and apply. Anyway, I am gonna stand back and ‘observe’…I may have intruded to much in this important discussion already.
Best wishes everyone!
C.D.
who’s intruding?
This doesn’t seem to be an issue over in the UK:
http://www.railway-technical.com/sig-uktypes.html#4-Aspect-Operating
I’ve got myself thinking again. First the scenario:
We got a crew running a train down some very ‘foreign’ track…they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. They’ve ‘downloaded’ the books, schedules, tables, etc, and for the most part things make sense, but once in a while they get kinda confused.
Anyway they are approaching a junction which has a three signal heads. However the top head is burnt out, so instead of seeing three heads, they see two. This junction has not background lighting, the area is fairly wooded with trees and bursh, and maybe in terms of documentation it is also simplied. Another train is approaching the junction, or perhaps has just left and stopped. The first train, will be using the same ‘exit’ route as the 2nd. Would the crew not seeing two lit heads instead of the three give them incorrect information…and thus lead them into disaster? Instead of seeing R/G/G (Rule 418 - Proceed, medium speed passing signal and through turnouts, approaching next signal at medium speed) they instead see G/G (Rule 405 - Proceed).
What prevents scenarios like this??? I know this scenario may not be technically possible, but I think ye all see my point…just trying to learn here. [:I]
You call for a pilot in the first place, and don’t end up getting into that situation.
You state that you have made an extensive study of signals world wide. So, how come you are asking these questions? You should already know the answers.
You just proved the point of my post. A junction is protected by Absolute Signals. As the name implies, its indication are absolute and must have direct dispatc
I did not say I did an extensive study of signals world wide! I said I did lots of reading of signals worldwide, and I also did not say I did lots of reading of railroad operations worldwide. I also did say I am (still) trying to learn. I could make a simple statement like “in a basic block system, a yellow aspect means the block in front of the signal is clear, but the next block is occupied, and the train is to proceed at a reduced speed”, and I’m sure you could find flaws in that text too! I could make a statement about Germans Hp or H1 systems and I’m sure I would ask a dumb question.
Regardless, thank you for for additional comments. [:)]
CrazyDiamond said:
"We got a crew running a train down some very ‘foreign’ track…they are out of their normal territory for whatever reason. "
Then they would need a pilot, an employee who is knowledgeable about the territory.
If there was a train ahead “that just left” then they probably wouldn’t get the signal you indicated. As far as having different signal systems, remember that crews operate on more or less the same territory all the time. They don’t roam all over the country. even if there are several systems they have to deal with, they are the same systems day after day.
Dave H.
Crazy Diamond, let us make it very clear, a crew does not “just” go running down a track they don’t normally go on. It’s not like you’re driving to the store and decide to take a different route. When a crew operates over a route different from that which they normally take and they’ve not seen that route, they ask for and get a “pilot”, a person that is familiar with the route and the rules and special instructions of that route. That person operates the engine if the engineer is not qualified.
turnout speeds are listed in the subdivision’s timetable…if they either don’t know the speed off hand, or don’t look…then they are just asking for T-R-O-U-B-L-E.
Yellow over yellow or flashing yellow on BNSF is approach medium that is telling me the engineer to do this as per signal rule 9.1.6, proceed prepair to pass the next signal not exceeding 40 mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at procsribed speed i.e. 30, 35 or 40 mph depending on the speed through the crossovers for the subdivision. Yellow over a hard green is advance approach and means this, proceed prepair to pass next signal not exceeding 50mph and be prepaired to enter diverging route at proscribed speed signal rule 9.1.5 now theese I stated apply to BNSF which we use GCOR NORAC could be a little bit different.
Rodney
Thank you everyone for your answers. Soon I will copy and paste into my own notes so that later when I start my own model RR I will have a lot of good info to help me!
Cheers,
C.D.
Well said! Yellow over green here means go 60 basicly and be prepared to go through turnout at x speed. Get out your timetable or SSI and go from there.
Course i aint got room to talk as I am on dark territory now and a foriegn line to boot! TWC and hope like hell everyone is doing their job.