This is all it boils down to with Lionel and UP. As someone who owns trademarks, has paid thousands of dollars to secure them, and has lawyers attack anyone who infringes upon them without paying me a royality, I must say that this UP/Lionel thing has gone on long enough.
If you think UP is a villain because they want Lionel to pay for using their trademarks, just put yourself in UP’s position.
Lets take CTT for example. I am going to start selling CTT T-shirts using their Mast head artwork and not give Kalmbach Publishing a dime. That’s okay isn’t it Neil? Afterall, it’s free advertising, right? If you say that it’s okay, I’ll be heading to my silk-screening center with your artwork right away and I’ll be listing CTT T-shirts for sale for $12.99. Argue with this one Elliot.
It’s more than that, it is the goodwill that UP has paid over the years for the UP name. If the name was worthless then Lionel would not use it. WE are willing to pay for trains with the UP logo so why shouldn’t Lionel pay too. Why should Lionel have a free lunch??
What this comes down to is that Lionel is using the UP name; making money using it and not paying for the right to use it . Why should Lionel have a market advantage over other Toy train manufacturers that ARE paying UP to use the UP name(s).
Up is not being greedy They are simply recouping value for value. Just because you dont have this kind of value or can get money for your name doesn’t mean that it is worthless to UP or others like Coke or Pepsi.
These companies spend millions making the name mean something, and now you feel Lionel should be able to just take it gratis?!
I don’t get why some feel that toy trains are somehow exempt from paying licensing fees?
i’d like to know if there is more to the story. (there has to be) if a lawsuit has been filed, it’s a public document and we can read the complaint… cant we? now… where do we find it?
Hate to say it Jack, but the CTT masthead ain’t worth 2 cents to me. I don’t want to buy it!Would you like some enterTRAINment hats, coffee mugs, t-shirts or post cards. I still have plenty.
This is a free market, UP owns their trademark and has every right to TRY to collect every penny for their name. I have never claimed otherwise. We know that people are willing to pay for the use of Coke, Pepsi, Ford etc. Which of these is more valuable the Minnesota Twins or the New York Yankees, and it is an acceptable answer to say that they both suck.
My problems with UP’s position are:
Why did they wait so long to do this?
Why are they seeking to the rights to the fallen flags?
Why aren’t BNSF, NS, CP and CN taking similar action?
The only conclusion that I can draw from all of this is GREED!!! And if there is one thing in this world that I can’t stand, it’s GREED!!! UP can call their action any damn thing they want. They can try to convince people that they are DEFENDING THEIR VALUABLE TRADEMARK. But in MY eyes they look like IDIOTS!!! GREEDY IDIOTS!!! I am not alone in this view.
Win or lose in court, UP is losing in the court of public opinion. In my mind, their grand history is tarnished by this action. This lawsuit is a BADWILL gesture, the GOODWILL is over. In the blink of an eye, UP has managed to destroy it’s image. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about this.
They are a corp. enity not just a railroad any more. They NEED to protect their corp. name, logo, & idenity in order to charge anyone who comes along in the future.
You have to charge everyone OR no one. Why now? I have a feeling when this is all over we all will know the exact reason.
These could also be charged for, spun off, or sold outright. And not just train related.
B/c they are waiting for the outcome! Once this is settled they all will jump on the band waggon b/c a precedence has been set.
Rember! Greed is all around you! It Is everwhere! You can not escape it!
After all it is part Human Nature! Also don’t forget Lionel and Athearn are also corps. looking out for THEIR own bottom line!
And the people who call it free advertising are wrong. It isn’t free advertising, it’s called LEECHING. Lionel is using UP and is not paying. I just hope they don’t hit too hard because Lionel will USE US and nail us for a lot more than a few dollars.
They probably have been sending Lionel letters for years. How do we know? You can only take things from the “nasty neighbors” for so long before you’ve had enough and finally have to take them to court.
You are entitled to your opinion Elliot. But you are wrong my friend. The thousands of dollars I spent to secure my trademarks and the couple of times I have had to defend them from illegal use puts me on the side of UP.
I respect that you are entitled to your own opinion, Jack, but you have to realise we are not denying the fact that UP does have the right to charge for the use of its logo. We are simply very angry that they have decided to do this and think that it’s stupid, that’s all.
Sask, you are wise well beyond your years, and you write well too!!![^]
Jack, I’m sorry that you have had trouble in the past regarding trademarks. They must have been very good art work for someone to want to use them. Small businesses have a very difficult time with trademarks, because they are so expensive to create and defend. Many people will take them, just to test you and see if you will respond. That part sucks.
UP is bigger than that, and the fact that they want the rights to the fallen flags shows their true motives here. The dollars involved are trivial, and the damage to UP is NIL. Actually, Santa Fe set the reverse precident when the F-3’s came out, and used their arrangement with Lionel to promote their public image. Successfully too.
A lot of people beside me and Sask are angry about all of the negative publicity that UP has created by pressing this issue. This has been on the back burner for the better part of a year, but filing this week has moved it right up front.
Someone posted a link to a story a while back about some of the stockholders being angry over this issue at the annual meeting. If the stock holders think this is a bad idea, why press it. I don’t think the national media has gotten a hold of this yet, but if they do, heads may roll at UP.
Win or lose in court, UP is losing in the court of public opinion. In my mind, their grand history is tarnished by this action. This lawsuit is a BADWILL gesture, the GOODWILL is over. In the blink of an eye, UP has managed to destroy it’s image. Nothing anyone says will change my mind about this.
I agree with this 100%. Even if UP wins they lose more than they win IMHO.
Ship it on the UNION PATHETIC [:(!]
Bob Blaisdell
UP is so pathetic they are saying the reason they are charging fees is to protect the UP look in Lionel trains and others.
Come on! Lie to us some more UP!
The reason they are collecting fees is simple: to bilk us. Nothing more, nothing less.
Do you think for just a minute that UP would, say, refuse to allow UP’s logo on a Beep because UP never had Beeps? No way, man. They’d gladly collect their fees.
(BTW, I’m just using Beep as an example; I don’t know if the company that makes them actually paid its fees).
GREEDY,GREEDY,GREEDY that is exactly what UP is.Has anyone managed to connect the fact that UP has a major shortage of train crews on their hands and when was the last time you drove out west on a major interstate highway that runs next to UP right of ways.Did you notice the number of trains parked in the middle of nowhere while their crews take their mandatory break.UP at this time contrary to popular opinion is losing their shirt due to the shortage of 4000 train crews 4000 big number isnt.A close freind of mine drives truck to the west coast every week and when he gets home he tells me that he see’s more and more of UP’s trains parked along the tracks every week the number is rising.UP has to recupe their loses somewhere.All this law suit stuff started about the same time that UP gave the press release about being short 4000 train crews and losing part of the ups contract that BNSF so graciusly stepped up to handle.UP says that on a ten dollar item the fee is only pennies on the dollar.So what about a $1499.00 dollar locomotive time 200 locomotives.It may not sound like a lot but believe me when you start adding it all together it will add up to a good chunk of money.And the fallen flags bit is rediculous.[:(!]
And 3railguy I’m very sorry to hear that kind of news you will be in our prayers.
"You have to charge everyone OR no one. Why now? "
You don’t have to charge at all to protect your trademark. You can also set the fees to whatever you desire. There are a lot of license’s that do no involve the exchange of money, just an acknowledgement of ownership and a review of the material to determine acceptible representation.