Hi, I have a 0 27 guage Lionel setup…
Im looking into williams 031 Diesel…
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will it run on my layout?
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If not what will I have to do???
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any thoughts on Williams Diesels???
thanx,
CS
Which Williams O-31 diesel are you thinking about? Most of the Williams postwar reproduction will be fine with O-27 curves. There are a few Williams diesels that will not clear Lionel O-27 switch machines, and may look a little strange taking an O-27 curve.
As far as the quality of Williams engines, they are very well made, and work very well. My only complaint would be coupler height. Williams couplers on a few of their products are higher than Lionels. That being said, I have never lost a consist with a Williams diesel, it just looks a little odd.
Williams makes excellent running engines,and as stated above most will run on 027. BUT if the specs. say 031 I would not buy it for use on 027. If it won’t go around the curves, remember they told you so.
Williams Diesel’s are very good and worth the money.
“O31” is the same as Lionel postwar “for O or Super O track only”. The problem is that big diesels hit the switch boxes on 027 switches.
I’ve run a Lionel FM on 027 track without switches with no problem other than the horrendous overhang.
I bought 3…
the GG-1 Semi scale Pennsylavania Electric
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=390000050263&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=026
, General Electrics U33C http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150258105007&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=005
and Fairbanks-Morse Train Master FM 109
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=380036647703&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=025
So What do you think??
Am I good, or do i need to change??
Thanx,
CS
Coldstorage, those may (or may not) clear your switch boxes. But they WILL have some big overhang, so they might hit other scenic features on your layout.
I personally would stick with the smaller Williams locos, that also look good with 027-sized kinds of cars. The Williams GP-7/9 is a tad smaller than the Lionel one, not as tall and without as much space between the trucks and frame - which I think looks much better.
Then there’s the Williams NW-2, the Williams repro 027 Alco FA and the single motored Centercab switcher. It runs fine even with only one motor. Even though long criticized for being way oversized for a replica of a 44-ton switcher, the Williams model (and Lionel) actually in my mind bear more in common with some of the newer cantercab switchers - which are longer in length - like the new GenSet switchers.
I know the Lionel F3 diesels negotiate(d) the curves without issue. And they negotiated the electric switches from Lionel circa 1960 without hitting the switch boxes…my buddy, when I was a “yute,” would bring his over his SF 2343, and it ran fine on the O27 layout my Dad built. Yes, the overhang looked ridiculous, even to a 9 year old.
Jack
Just a quick mention about the Williams GP-9’s, I have had some clearance problems with scenery and passing of other trains even on 042 curves, keep curve tracks apart at about 4&1/4 inches.
The Williams locomotives are excellant for the price and very good quality. The GP-9’s I have are some real work horses and will pull about 16 medium size freight cars. The 671 Pennsy steam loco pulls at least 24 post war Lehigh Valley quad hoppers and caboose. Not that impressed with their freight cars and cabooses.
Lee F.
Hmm…
Interesting feedback Lee, regarding the Williams GP9.
I have a Lionel Wabash Gp7, and some MPC GP7s or 9s or?
There is an auction coming up with some Williams GPs…are they better? should I consider getting one/some??
runtime
runtime,
I will tell you what I paid for my Reading GP-9 about six years was $125.00, it has True Blast 2 horn feature with bell. My Pennsy GP-9 powered unit & non-powered cost me $200.00, I upgraded the unpowered Pennsy unit to True Blast 2 with bell feature, very tight fit inside the shell!
In my opion get a Williams engine and see how you like it first, that’s what I did. I have a small fleet of Williams locomotives, three GP-9’s, three SD-45’s, three F-7’s(only one unit is powered) with El Capitan passenger cars, and one S-2 Pennsy steam loco.
Lee F.
I believe that you will find that horizontal-motor F3s tend to scrape the O27 switch machines. Lionel was able to claim that the vertical-motor F3s, first made in 1955, were O27 locomotives because the new motor design moved the truck center bearings inboard, creating a substantial clearance from the switch machines. Could that 2343 have been a 2243 AB set, or do you specifically remember an AA, Jack?
The Williams locos will clear the K-Line O-27 style switch machines that do not have the big hump.
They are not in the K-Lionel catalogs but may be available from some dealers.
The Lionel Santa Fe Warbonnet F3s were AA, and he never had a dummy B unit. He had passenger cars which all I recall were metal and dwarfed my 242X plastic bodied ones. Based on the AA arrangement, he could have had the F3 2343 (1950-52), the 2353 (1953-1955), or the 2383 (1958-1966). The reason I thought 2343s was because we were running these in the late 1950s and he said his father bought these around the time he was born, 1951.
Could it be that the diesels cleared the switch boxes because of the direction we were running the trains relative to the swing out of the engine overhang?
Jack
The 2383 had vertical motors and would have had no problem; but, as you say, it was made much later than the others. Here’s McComas’s and Tuohy’s take on it: “The pivot points of the motors and the trucks beneath them were moved in from the ends, closer to the middle of the engine. This made it possible for thelocos to navigate 027 track with less difficulty than the other F-3s, which sometimes brushed their fuel tanks against the 027 switch motors, causing derailments.” My guess is that your friend’s locomotive did have horizontal motors and just “scraped by”. I don’t see how the direction of travel could have made a difference.
The aluminum 2500-type cars are a different matter altogether. I’ll bet they didn’t go through 1122-type turnouts. I run one, a modern 9100 Amtrak baggage car on my O27 layout; but I have cut the skirts completely off it: The middle of the body swings over the top of the switch machine.
He never brought his cars over to run on my O27 layout. Just the F3s. We used my rolling stock.
Jack
My first Lionel was a 2243 pair that I got in 1955 (birthday? Christmas?). I saved my allowance and bought the four silver 2400-type cars one by one, fortunately never noticing how much bigger the locomotive was than the cars and blissfully unaware of the aluminum cars; so I never had any trouble with my two 1122 turnouts.
Bob…as kids, with trains we could care less about mixing scales and/or pursuing realism. It was about imagination and the fun factor. At one point on the train board I had a huge Remco Bulldog tank, an Eldon 1:32 scale slot car track, and model airplanes in the mix that spanned Spad and Fokker biplanes and triplanes to Sabre jets to Sky King’s Songbird Cessna 310B.
We were quite respectful of others and their trains. My friend with the SF F3s loved the quickness and speed of my RI 2031s, but there was no mistaking his F3 could pull as many cars as we could muster: passenger, freight, military.
Those green plastic soldiers weren’t a fit either…to an adult.
Jack
Our family bought a used 2343 AA in the early 60’s and we ran it on 027 1122 switches with no problems. I used those switches up till about 4 years ago. The switches were sold off but the 2343 still runs like charm.
You did quite well. Especially with the more realistic True Blast horn. The running boards of Lionel Trainmasters interfere with 027 switch machines so it is likely the Williams model will too but I am not 100% sure. Depends on the truck pivot spacing. You can buy 031 track and 022 switches on ebay all day for dirt cheap. Fastrack has killed the market for it.
I have a set of Lionel 2383’s and by golly, the fuel tanks do clear 027 switch machines.
John, you’re right about the Lionel Train Master. The center bearings are close to the outboard ends of the trucks. But that means that there is a hope that the Williams version would clear–if they were clever enough to move those pivots to the other end of those rather long trucks.
I run the Lionel locomotive on O27, but with several modifications: The most drastic is the removal of the fuel tank, so that the body swings over the switch machines instead of hitting them. I also rotated the pickup assemblies 180 degrees, to get the rollers closer to the middle axle, which has flanged wheels. Otherwise, the swingout of the blind wheels makes the roller short out on the O27 turnouts. I also enlarged the keyholes for the center bearings to allow the trucks to pivot through a slightly greater angle and trimmed a little off the field coil bobbins for the same purpose.
Indeed, the 2383 has no problem at all with O27, because of the vertical-motor geometry. I run mine with a couple of 2243C B units, which are a perfect match for the 2383’s black trucks. That’s supposed to be the way that Santa Fe did it, with the A and B units bolted, not coupled, together. You had to pay extra for couplers.