1950 PRR Switching Layout Design--Dog, you were right

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
1

I posted this on the General board, but after it hit page 2 with no comments I figured I really should have put it here.

Here it is, my 30" x 96" shelf/switching layout from a single LDE. I took this from 1938 aerial photos, 1916,1930 & 1950 Sanborn maps, selectively compressed it some, and fudged a little to make it work.

Operations

Notes

  1. Everything backs in from the wye about two miles to the left of the layout.

  2. I’m assuming that staging will extend the leads.

Ops

Passenger Service comes once a day and the passenger track must be clear when it arrives.

Freight arrives once a day. A switcher will break down the train and build the train for pick up. The freight engine drops cars and picks up cars. The switcher moves them. I don’t have a good place for the cabin. Theoretically, it would have been dropped off the layout.

There are two “sorts” of cars. One that is set out on the visible layout. One that is to the south of the layout. The industries that are south of town are a lumber yard, a tire manufacturing plant, a glass manufacturer, a brewery, etc. There are two switchers in the “yard.” One switches the visible area, and the other takes the other sort to staging.

Outgoing trains are made up of outgoing shipments of both visible and staged industries.

What am I missing? What is implausible?

2

DOUBLE check those switches. They will eat up length.

Double check those buildings. If you already have em GREAT! If you are going to build em, measure twice build once.

YOur trackwork near the staging is unnecessarily complicated. Try to cut down on the number of switches. Try to justify every single peice of track and mentally/or on paper work out each track and how it will be earning it’s keep.

Did you just ternimate the mainline at the passenger station before it crosses water street? That mainline needs to keep going to the “East” of that track plan.

Remove that switch from the middle of Philadelpha street.

No wait… on second thought leave that switch alone. But DO remove the set of tracks closest to the Stewarts Hardware row along Railroad ave.

Relocate the Buchanan Grocery warehouse to the corner of 9th and Water and have your dock on that track there. Give railroad ave some room to breath and you a way to reach the switches in case of derailment.

Scrap the one peice of track that was serving the current Buchanon Grocery, reverse the switch… and then…

#10 Passenger Station gets pulled out into the “South” by a small bulge intruding just a little bit into the people space.

Run a track from the switch at the former Buchanon location and then lay down track up to about where the orginal passenger station was and tie in somewhere along the main, that way you will have a run around.

One of your staging tracks is going to be used as a drill, I dont see any way around it.

If you dont understand any of this, let me know precisely and I will try again to explain my thoughts in the problem areas.

I think that is a good plan.

3

Well, any thread with PRR in the title I just have to check out. [^] But on with it, over all I think it sounds good. But things I would change, is have a passenger train come twice, once morning then evenings, also I would have times when the line has to be clear, liek 5 times a day (or operating session) where a through frieght comes in. I may be mis-understanding what your trying to do but just my [2c]. Mike

4

Bearing in mind that I look at the layout with foriegn eyes…

You seem to be packing a lot in…

I would remove the loco house and put the auto unloading there. Why would the RR confine an engine house in such a crowded/expensive location?

I have a question about backing trains in 2 miles from the wye… would passenger trains do this? I know they are pushed into dead end stations but over 2 miles? If you pull them in with the road engine they can be switched out by the yard engine(s) to release the road engine - push them back in with the switcher while the road engine gets serviced - remove the switcher and put the road engine back on.

I think that you would make life easier for yourself (and us) if you sketched out the tracks/yards not modelled… it will help you have a picture in your mind for where the traffic comes from and goes to - at least between the wye and the modelled track.

I’m glad that you are thinking about “off scene” tracks that create moves in the modelled scene.

Where do the road vehicles go in Railroad Avenue? … it’s all track.

What are the tracks next to the hardware buildings (4) do? Why the crossovers? If it’s a runround will it be long enough to do anything?

How does a passenger train work the passenger station? Would it be better to stretch the runround up toward the present freight station and make that the passenger station? (making the passeneger station the freight station).

I think that carrying through one at least of the roads to the RH end would allow you to expand at some future time if you want.

Hope this helps

[:P]

5

Well, you certainly are stuffing a lot in. A couple of things about your sliding staging (traverser). Assuming you are planning to have this against the wall, the first track can’t be slid into position into position to mate up with the tracks to the right. I would eliminate it.

It appears that you are going to have to use tracks on the traverser for switching, so I would eliminate tracks 4, 5, and 6 and replace them with scenery and view block so that tracks 7 through 14 are hidden. The hidden tracks would be your staging.

I would put a turnout on track two about the middle of the traverser leading to track 3 (track 3 would start here). This gives you more runaround flexibility.

Operations would start by pulling out the traverser so that a train can enter the scene to the right. Once clear the traverser is pushed back so that the track and scenery at the front are now in play and you have the full 8 feet for operations. When that train is ready to leave it is moved to the right and the traverser pulled out to its destination track.

Even though its a busy plan visually, I think operationally it will be a lot of fun.

Enjoy

Paul

6

Looking Good!

The coal trestle should make things interesting assuming that engines are NOT allowed on it.

The Dog would suggest replacing the engine house with something else unless you intend to base the gas-electric car there.

Working in a meat wholesale plant might provide additional interset.

Have fun

7

Thanks guys.

I wanted to start by saying that the track plan is strictly from the prototype. I wanted to keep that is much as possible to that plan. The only piece of track I added is I extended the siding along Stewart’s Hardware to make a small runaround. Nowhere in the prototype was one provided. In fact, the only way an engine could make a runaround move was the one crossover you see and the point where the two tracks merged a quarter mile south.

http://www.vitaconnect.com/photos/IndianaMap01.jpg

So here are my fudges. The tractor supply is on the other side of an alley beyond the feed supply. The flour mill is on the other side of the alley from the produce supply. The grocery warehose was on the other side of the street just south of Stewart’s Hardware.

The trackwork between the station and the freight station was present in 1950, but not used. However, the prototype had a quarter mile of dual track to sort and switch. I didn’t have that kind of space so I needed to restore the old track.

Oh yeah, the engine house was on the lower of the three tracks not the upper.

Of course, the layout has compressed space.

The only way to turn the train was the wye. And since the photos I have of the era shows the trains backed in, I asuumed they all did. At least this why I am doing it this way on my layout.

8

Chip,

I LIKE IT!

Just a couple of addenda, starting with staging:

Or, you could save track 6 by putting in a vertical backdrop and hiding the lower edge with ground cover. Logical place for a true-to-prototype photomural.

Or, make it a crossover, and use the left end spur as an engine pocket for the road loco while the switcher is swapping consists.

As for the consists, I could see this as a home for a local diesel switcher, with G5 passenger power and H9 or L1 freight. As for the cabin, unless there are automobiles to be spotted or you’re on the passenger train’s time, it could be left standing adjacent to the passenger sta

9

Somehow I feel snookered.As you didn’t say it was based on a prototype .[:)]However I did find it to be a really interesting plan. My first impression was to say that it should be closer to 16’ long but not many of us have that kind of space. I have no criticism of the plan itself cause I have no idea how to design track plans. I usually shop plans til I’m blue in the face and then wind up modifying the plan to fit my space. After a few months I find myself thinking"well,I should have done this and this and so on." Anyways thanks for throwing that out there for us to ponder.

10

As a prototype PRR layout plan myself, I won’t suggest any changes to the trackage. Fact is better than fiction in many cases.

I would recommend that you check the ability of the trackage to place cars properly at the industries. For example, I believe the real RR rule of thumb was to allow a half a car length past the desired spot on dead end spurs to avoid hard stops against bumpers and allow for variations in car length (such as Duryea sills). Although you may have room to put a car in a particular position, will that put the car door in a place that is a realistic location for a building door?

Also, verify that realisticly placed cars will not foul tracks, for example on Railroad Avenue.

PRR owned tracks (as by the depot and car platform and the engine yard) would most likely terminate with PRR concrete bumpers - especially because an overrun would enter a public street. Make sure you leave enough room for a sidewalk between the bumper and the street as well. (A brick sidewalk if PRR property.)

It looks like you coal trestle will have a pretty steep grade, considering that the leading switch will have to be level (for good operation) and the far end will need a level length to accomodate an 33-ft hopper, more if the yard sells more than one type of coal. (On mine I went with a flat track and under-car conveyor to put the products - two grades of antracite, one grade of bituminous - in bins for this reason.)

Where’s the park with the two WW I cannons?

Where did you get your Sanborn maps?

KL

11

BTW, is the engine house prototypical? The map layout looks like your typical public (team) track.

KL

12

Some additional thoughts.

Change the “auto” unloading platfrom to warp around the end of the track giving an “end” unloading platform. That would provide a place to unload items such as farm machinery, construction equipment, and heavier trucks such as coal dump trucks.

Pave the are between the passenger and freight station. That will provide some “team” track space.

Expand the coal trestle to also handle products like road salt. The home coal business would be on the wane by that point, the company would be looking for other lines of business.

As stated above, add a meat wholesaler the provide an excuse to run packing house reefers.

Sell the freight station to the local beer distributor to provide a home for some brewery reefers.

Expand the scope of the hardware store to be a contractors’ and farmers’ supply

Have fun

13

i really like Ironrooster’s suggestion , it turns a 6’ layout with staging into an 8’ layout with hidden staging . a huge improvement ! (i’m estimating the size based on your drawing , feel free to correct my numbers)

on a very practical note … i know you’re planning on doing this partially to fill time until you can get working on the basement empire 1900’s layout , but it looks to me like this layout is going to require a lot of buildings for it’s size , many of which will have to be scratchbuilt if you’re planning to stick as close to the prototype as possible .

are you going to have time to build this before you want to get started on the big layout ?

14

Hi Spacemouse!

You always seem to come up with a lot of great ideas.

Okay, how about lending me part of your capabilities?

I am working on a PRR HO layout.

I have the outer loop of trackbed layed already, I am using WS foam roadbed on top of 2 inch thick pink foam, with the under frame being a boxed in bed lattice type framework…

My total table top layout is 3 sections put end to end.

They are EACH 6 foot wide by 8 feet long, for a total of 6 feet by 24 feet.

It sets 42 inches high off the flloor.

It can easily be dismanteld and moved if ever necessary.

Lightweight, yet very strong, legs are 2x4s, and each one cross braced.

ALSO- it is TOTALLY a WALK-AROUND layout in a basement room that is about 13 by 31 feet, with ample room to work all around.

There is room for future expansion, going around the outside wall of the room and back onto the table.

Okay, I debating on a center divider-backdrop, or maybe even build the center as a mountain, with the trains able to go through a mountain pass or tunnels and from one side of the layout to the other.

I am also definetly going to put a second mainline loop all the way around the table also.

Okay, how about throwing in some ideas, if it were you, what would you do.

I will also add that I have a brand new in the box Walthers HO 130 foot turntable with matching round house kit, and all the various steam era maintenace buildings, ash pit, etc.

It will be LATE 1940’s to late 1950’s era.

Track is code 100 , and I have a lot of flex track to use up and various Atlas switches.

I have played with many ideas, but simply am inviting a some outside ideas.

Anyone is welcome to toss in various ideas.

My basement is VERY DRY, this being an OVERBUILT home built by a building contractor for he and his family originally, and is about 20 years old.

He later built another home elsew

15

STEWART and COMPANY HARDWARE

HOW INTERESTING!!!

Spacemose , is this a picture of Indiana Pennsylvania?

If so, do you know whose family owned and operated Stewart and Co. Hardware?

Known for his affectionate smile, and mild manner, and considered one of the best actors who ever made movies, none other than the late James " Jimmy" Stewart"

He was born and raised in Indiana Pennsylvania.

There is a statue of him there, and also an entire section of “The US Army 8th Air Force Museum” in Savannah Georgia dedicated to him.

He flew B-24 bombers in world war two, and made 20 combat missions over enemy territory.

He finally retired from te military in the 1960’s as a Brigadier General in the Air Force Reserve.

I just read a really great book about him titled “Jimmy Stewart Bomber Pilot”

In it it has a picture of him working in this very hardware store!!

Wow, what a coincidence and what a neat picture!!!

Ed

16

Thanks for your effort SV. Those are NMRA #4, the same as the Fastracks Jig I have.

All will have to be scratchbuilt. Maybe a third are standing. Pictures are hard to come by. I plan to build cardboard replicas until I can tackle each.

[quote]
Your trackwork near the staging is unnecessarily complicated. Try to cut down on the number of switches. Try to justify every single peice of track and mentally/or on paper work out each track and how it will be earning it’s keep.

Did you just ternimate the mainline at the passenger station before it crosses water street? That mainline needs to keep going to the “East” of that track plan.

Remove that switch from the middle of Philadelpha street.

No wait… on second thought leave that switch alone. But DO remove the set of tracks closest to the Stewart’s Hardware row along Railroad ave.

Relocate the Buchanan Grocery warehouse to the corner of 9th and Water and have your dock on that track there. Give railroad ave some room to breath and you a way to reach the switches in case of derailment.

Scrap the one peice of track that was serving the current Buchanon Grocery, reverse the switch… and then…

#10 Passenger Station gets pulled out into the “South” by a small bulge intruding just a little bit into the people space.

Run a track from the switch at the former Buchanon location and then lay down track up to about where the orginal passenger station was and tie in somewhere along the main, that way you will have a run around.

One of your staging tracks is going to be used as a drill, I dont see any way around it.

If you dont understand any of this, let me know precisely and I will try again to explain my thoughts in the problem areas.

I think tha

17

Thanks. I’ll keep it in mind. I won’t really settle anything about the until I’ve run it a few times.

18

It wasn’t there in the 1916 Sanborn map shown, but it was there in the 1938 aerial photo. I left it in, because I couldn’t figure out what the PRR would have done with their switcher. There was a siding next to the wye that could have been used in 1950, but…

At any rate on my layout, I have to house them somewhere. It’s unlikely they would have been stored outside in the snow. It could have just been a roof with open sides. But the map says engine house.

I’m pretty sure they backed in. At least the two photos above show that and there were no other ways to turn an engine.

I have the aerial photos and Sanborn maps back that far.

As you can see by the map, there was room to the east of the tracks in the prototype,

19

Hi Spacemouse,

I noticed on your avatar you are from Indiana PA, so you probably already know about Jimmy Stewart.

Hey you should have the hardware store with a caricature of Jimmy Stewart waving to everyone!

Have a great day!

Ed

20

I figured that out after I posted it.

Brilliant! The Buchannan Grocery Wholesale literally takes up that whole block. I can put it back where it belongs and it would be the scene break. I just put up the “front” and roof of the building and staging can run through the building and behind it. Brilliant!

Thanks the ops I see are pretty much as you describe.