I keep seeing this and I’m not even quite sure that its true. But what caused the abnormal profits that the Northern Pacific had from its passenger operations in the 1960’s during such a sharp, nationwide decline in ridership?
Seattle World’s Fair in 1962 and growth in travel to Yellowstone and follow up visits to NW by midwesterners. One of the things that helped the NP passsenger bottom line was the Slumbercoaches first assigned to the North Coast Limited and later when more were purchased second hand from Budd they were assigned to the Mainstreeter as well. The Seattle Portland pool train was also an excellent train providing coach, and Parlor service. Its schedule leaving near the noon hour with arrival in Portland around four was excellent and the return was also reasonable. For passengers travelling long distances on the NCL that train provided excellent scenery from the Vista Domes. There were two for coach passengers and two for sleeping car passengers during the summer months. The NP unloaded most of its branchline and unprofitable routes by the 1960’s which also helped the bottom line.
Al - in - Stockton
It also served an area of the mountain west with limited choices in transportation. Even in the seventies some “Interstates” in Montana were basically gravel highways. Airline service was limited and expensive. Plus NP did it’s best to keep quality and service high.
Was the NP the only railroad with a dome sleeper car?
No. The C&O ordered three 5 roomette, 1 bedroom, 3 drawing room (only 2 berths since these rooms were under the dome) dome cars–and the B&O bought them and ran them on the Capitol Limited (two of them) and on the Shenandoah (the third one, on alternate days eb & wb. Also, the observation cars for the California Zephyr and the CP each had 3 bedrooms and 1 drawing room.
I’m not sure where you get your information, but having grown up in Montana in the 60’s and 70’s, and having family in Helena, Bozeman, Billings and Havre that we regularly visited, the interstates (I-90 and I-15) were NEVER gravel roads, perhaps your confusing an interstate highway with a state highway (which were all paved in my memory) or maybe you experienced and oil & gravel repave job (chips).
You may be surprised to learn that we also had electricity, running water and airports as well. You must be from “back east”.
(hope you are picking up on my sarcasm, cause I’m laying on pretty heavy) [swg]
GS
Northern Pacific ran a classy operation.
But, could you be more specific, like with numbers? Do you mean “profit” or revenue? There’s quite a difference. Like most roads, NP made no profit on its passenger operations, let alone “abnormal” profits. The NP pretty much paralleled Interstate Highway development during that period of time. It seems like that would have had to have hurt the operation. On the other hand, it inherited Milwaukee Road’s passenger base when Milwaukee shut down the Olympian in 1961. On the other, other hand, NP was a pretty small passenger operation compared to GN, for instance. I would have thought GN kept its ridership better than anyone, due to the nearly complete lack of Interstate Highway development along its lines. I recall passenger numbers increasing on GN just prior to the Merger, and loss numbers were getting better as well. I vaguely recall NP’s numbers declining.
My information came from a car trip from the Twin Cities to the west coast in July 1973. I was rather surprised to be on an Interstate that had a very long stretch of gravel. I guess it could have been a temporary thing due to some major repaving project or something.
Stix
It was a “chipping” job, they lay down a coat of oil, then come back and spread gravel on top of it. Instead of running a roller over it they would let the traffic drive over it to press the gravel into the oil and to form the “pavement”. Usually wouldn’t take long on an interstate to go from gravel to pavement, the downside is everyone’s windshield would get hammered, and you had gravel berms on each side of the lane for awhile. Obviously this method was driven by costs, much cheaper to resurface alot of highway in a state with low population.
sorry, no numbers. I just keep hearing on these forums that something like eight out of the ten years in the sixties, NP had a profit on its passenger service.
Yeah I knew that one, but I consider it an observation car not a sleeper. One of those fuzzy lines.
Also don’t forget the dome sleeper that operated on the GM Train of Tomorrow and later went to the UP where it operated between Portland - Seattle round trip in there pool train but never operated as a sleeper instead the space was all sold at parlor cars rates.
And don’t forget how several of those NP Dome sleepers operated winters in the Southwind and City of Miami and for one season even in the Panama Limited.
Al - in - Stockton
That’s not something I recall. The NP didn’t have real good operating ratios in general in the 1960s. I can’t imagine that passenger service was earning better then freight. By 1967, NP was reporting: “A continuing effort is being made to reduce heavy losses incurred through the operation of passenger trains.” –Northern Pacific Railway, Annual Report,1967, p. 6.
I must need my hearing checked [{(-_-)}]. Naturally, I was skeptical when I got the information.
No the information is correct. I don’t recall right now exactly how many years NP made a profit (albeit a small one) on passenger service from say 1958-68 but it was a majority of those years. William Kuebler Jr. talks about that in his book The Vista-Dome North Coast Limited: The Story of the Northern Pacific Railway’s Famous Domeliner which is a quite thoroughly researched book. (Bill is / was president of the Northern Pacific Railway Historical Society.)
Operating Ratio, Northern Pacific Railroad, Passenger Operations
1958: 200.1%
1959: 194.3%
1960: 193.0%
1961: 175.8%
1962: 180.2%’
1963: 180.8%
1964: 183.5%
1965: 194.3%
1966: 186.1%
1967: 198.7%
1968: 261.4%
These represent a substantial loss in every single year.
“With an average out-of-pocket cost in 1958 of $3.76 per train-mile, $1.25 per train-mile reached the bottom line as net profit, a very respectible figure. Annual passenger revenue on the NP increased during each of the four consecutive years of 1959-1962, with the North Coast Limited accounting for the bulk of this income. While other railroad’s premier passenger trains were bleeding red ink during those years, the North Coast Limited was still making a profit. By 1968 however, it was barely breaking even.”
- William R. Kuebler, Jr. The Vista-Dome North Coast Limited (pg.11)
I know that 1962 was a big year for both the GN and NP due to the Seattle Worlds Fair. It was probably more so for the GN as the NP North Coast Limited had two accidents that damaged a lot of equipment. One was in Idaho and the other in Montana. The Idaho one dumped the diesels and one or two head end cars into a lake and taking the lives of several engine crew and the one in Montana if memory serves me right involved the eastbound NCL being a runaway coming off Evaro Hill or going too fast for a curve and putting most of the head end and coach section on the ground with many on their sides. But the GN Empire Builder and Western Star both ran at maximum train lengths for the duration of the fair from April - September. Likewise the North Coast Limited and Mainstreeter. Even the UP City of Portland and Portland Rose benefitted from the Worlds fair in 1962. Longer Internationals of the GN and all three roads Seattle - Portland pool trains saw increased ridership. Any of the buses going north on 4th Avenue in Seattle between King St. Station and Union Station took passengers to the Monorail for the ride to the fair. Several of the building’s and of course the Space Needle still stand that were built for the Seattle Worlds Fair. It was interesting that Seattle brought two ships to the ci
If I recall that wreck, the first coach that went on the ground was a dome-coach and it scooped up dirt/mug through the door into the compartment. It buried a sleeping passenger and she suffocated. The NCL’s only passenger fatality in its entire history.
Bad wreck. One of the Missoula NP Dispatchers, “Van,” drove me up the next day to look at it.
The post I am responding to says this: “I don’t recall right now exactly how many years NP made a profit (albeit a small one) on passenger service from say 1958-68 but it was a majority of those years.”
Without offering my personal opinion and the reasons for it, the published Operating Ratios show that this is factually wrong.
Now, a quote arises about the North Coast Limited.
The Northern Pacific’s Passenger Operating Ratios were among the worst in the country. Probably due to lack of economies of scale – it was also one of the smallest operations of the transcontinentals. About half the size of GN’s, considerably smaller than Union Pacific’s, and perhaps about one-fourth the size of any of the “Big Four” Midwestern roads. I seem to recall that even with substantially fewer passengers, NP maintained a car fleet just about the same size as GN and some of the others. It was a very inefficient operation, and a lot of credit has to go to the Company for maintaining it as well as they did. Robert McFarland took the passenger operation seriously; Lou Menk wanted to see it gone, as quickly as possible.
Given that, the North Coast Limited was a considerable part of that operation, and the very negative operating ratios of that operation simply belie any serious contention that the NCL was even close to p