Hello Forum,
After the NYC switched to diesel motive power on the 20th Century Limited, were all the streamliners for the 20th Century painted in the lightning stripe livery or were there sections that had the all silver streamliners?
Thank You,
Do you mean real “sections” of the 20th Century or do you mean other passenger streamliner trains on the NYC?
The Empire State Express had stainless steel cars. I believe this was from inaguration (1941) all the way to Amtrak.
Hello,
I am referring to real “sections” of the 20th Century Limited.
Well “sections” means a completely separate train running on basically the same schedule as the regular train. During WW2 trains like the Century often ran with several sections, each on maybe 10 minutes separation. After the war, traffic began to decline so I suspect by 1950 or so sections weren’t that common.
AFAIK there was no attempt made to keep each “section” unified as to appearance. Certainly all the pics / films I’ve seen of the Century and other NYC trains in the fifties shows trains with two-tone gray, stainless steel, and even a few green heavyweights all mixed together. If anything, see a train that all matched each other seemed to be the rarity!!
Keep in mind too that NYC switched the two-tone gray scheme around 1947-48 so for a while even if a train was all two-tone gray, they might not match as some had the dark gray thru the windows (1938 scheme) and some had light gray thru the window area (the later scheme, as modelled in Walthers version of the Century.)
The 20th century limited did cary stainless car(s) from the from SantaFE during the early 50s. The consist of the Century is mentioned in one of the new Kalmbach magazines I received today, but I cant remember if it was Classic Trains, Model Railroader or Trains, but I did se it today. They were added to the train near the end, but the observation was, usually one of the two Creek cars, was the last car. If several sections were run they usually used some other observation on the end, but the Century mostly remained all in dthe two toned grey paint job, with some modifications in the seperation stripes. (narrow white/silver stripes) between the greys. The Walthers cars have the most correct paint scheme to date as stated in the New York Central Historical Socitey Magazine The Headlight. I know those century cars and Walthers other NYC cars do not match, they greys of the Century cars are darker. The E7s that Walthers has for the Century match the Century coaches and have the early E Number boards, and window arrangement.
After the Century merged the 20th Century Limited with another named train in the late 50s IIRC they started getting the stainless cars in the train, and the sleeper coaches they used only came in stainless, which they also used after the merger with that other named train.
There are several reasonably good books out there , such as NYC Through Passanger trains and The Twentyth century Limited to name two. Also information is available from the NYC Historical society. The differences in the greys and silver/white stripes is not readly apparent in most photographs.
Just to clarify, the paint colors stayed the same, it was the paint scheme that changed. If I can use Walthers HO models as an example, the 1938 streamlined 20th Century had a light gray body with the dark gray going thru the window section (originally with blue stripes, later switched to white) like this:
About 10 years later the railroad reversed the colors, so the main body was now dark gray and the section thru the windows was the light gray.
So for a while in the forties you could see cars with both paint schemes working together, although the transition to the new “reversed” paint scheme appears to have happened pretty quickly.
Keep in mind too that the first NYC E-7s from 1945 rec’d the earlier version of the lightning stripe scheme, matching the 1938 cars (except one E-7 pair that were all black with white stripes). These were changed starting around 1947-48 to the “reverse” scheme as shown in Walthers 1948 20th Century models.
The differences between the 1938 pre war and the 1948 post war paint is very apparent. The NYC made several minor changes to the silver stripes that border the white seperation stripes on the post war 1948 paint job in both width and paint formulation.
The silver stripes are almost inperceptable in most photographs both on the models and the prototype. If you use a magnifying glass on the Walthers 20th Century Limited cars you will find the fine silver stripes bordering the white stripes. I am not sure if my other Walthers cars in the post 1948(not Century cars) have the silver stripes or not. I do know that the other Walthers paint jobs on my non Century cars do not match the Walthers Century Cars and E-7 A&B engines, so I do not mix them on my layout in the same train.
Also the Sleepercoaches were introduced into the 20th Century Limited in april 1959. They were stainless steel and they were probably the first stainless cars put in the consist on purpose other than the AT&SF cars usually just in front of the observation. I am sure that at some point they had to use stainles cars, either as stand in’s or when the demand for equipment required; however they did endeavor to keep the Century in matching colors as much as possible right through the end.
The book "The Twentieth Century Limited" , 1938 to 1967 by Richard J. Cook explains it pretty well, has diagrams of the paint schemes and floor layouts of the cars, consist information for several years of both NYC bound and Chicago bound trains, the engines, both diesel and steam and has many really nice photos. It is well worth the price and can be found on the internet for less than $20.00. IIRC there were several diagrams that were obtained from original artwork done by the Kalmbach people, and were published in MR many years ago.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
Aside from the Santa Fe, what other railroads would have streamliners in the 20th Century Limited?
The Century did not routienly cary any other railroads cars that I know about. They only carrierd the SantaFe cars I think from the late 40s through the 50s, and I do not think they carried them into the 60s at all, IIRC the operation ceased in 1958. I can check book at home and get back to you if you would like to know, or I believe there is a question in the December Model Railroader that covers it.
Of course the Chief was an all stainless train, so it probably looked funny with the NYC Grey car in its consist just as the stainless car in the Century looked.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
Good Morning,
As to motive power on the 20th Century after dieselization, would there have ever been enough cars in a section to warrant an ABA or ABBA configuration for the E8’s?
Thanks[:)]
No, if there were that many cars, they’d just run another section. [;)]
There also were limitations as to platform length at stations etc. so normally NYC passenger trains wouldn’t go beyond 14-16 cars. Two E units could handle that pretty easily.
The NYC used an E7 AB after receiving their first E units in 1946. In the later years the usual power was an E7(or8), ABA, or some combination there of. Sometimes ABB, Sometimes ABA, sometimes AAA, In photos and vidoes I have seen mostly ABA when using three E units. The NYC had E7 As & Bs, and E8As, but no E8B units. Most frequently in the photos with three engines I have seen they were E7A, E7B and an E8A. I have never seen a picture of anything other than E units on the point of the Century, and I have several books and vidoes that have images of the Century. DISCLAIMER: I am sure that at some point in the history of the NYC they have used something other than E units on the Century, I just have not seen it.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR