#4 turn outs

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
21

I happen to have one of each on my bench. The 18" radius snapswitch frog is at a noticeably broader angle than the #4.

I have 5 of the 22" snapswitches on my bench. They have broader angle frogs than a #4 and a curved diverging route.

I wouldn’t use snapswitches for yard ladders. Of course, I’ve decided I wouldn’t use them period. After experiencing what they can do that isn’t what I need from a turnout.

Atlas Customline #4 appear to be equivalent to the #5 made by three other turnout manufacturers which are routinely used in yard ladders.

All these turnouts work somewhere or Atlas wouldn’t make any. Just be sure the snapswitch or the #4 Customline will do what you expect and require.

22

It’s not “equivalent.” It’s a #4½ frog, not a #5 frog.

23

Thanks, Byron, for that reminder. It has often made me wonder why Atlas has chosen to label the product as a #4 turnout rather than call it what it is - - a #4.5 turnout.

Rich

24

Williekat: I can confirm, along with “rrebell”, also through using Walthers/Shinohara #4 turnouts, 40 & 50 foot freight cars, GP9s, and 2-8-2s, that you should not have problems.

This is actual real world experience.

-Kevin

25

Look up equivalent. At least one denotation includes the context in which I used the word.

Also, is there a 4.5 frog? I thought they were all whole numbers.

26

Frog number is a function of the divergence angle, so you could have an infinite number of frog numbers.

You could quite readily build a #9.375 frog. It may be easier to deal in whole numbers for a variety of reasons, but there’s nothing that requires it.

27

What’s the frog angle on a Peco Code 83 #5 turnout?

28

from the Catskill Archive on prototype trackage

29

Speaking down to me might make you feel better about yourself, you really seem to enjoy it.

Speaking down to Byron makes you out to be the fool you are. Very few people are as respected as he is, and he is one of the truly knowledgeable participants in this group.

It has also become a very disturbing habit of yours to cause turmoil in threads where newcomers ask basic questions. You seem to like geting these threads locked by the moderators. This needs to stop. It is bad enough that you don’t know enough about model railroading to even understand what you are copying and pasting, but now you are causing new participants to perceive us as a dispruptive group.

Check yourself.

-Kevin

30

Has no one explained to you what those numbers mean? You could have 4.75 frog if you want.

Just like roof pitch is described by units of rise and run, turnout frogs are described by units of run and separation.

Measured from the point of the frog, 5 units out, a separation of of one unit is a #5.

So 4-1/2 units x 1 unit is a #4-1/2 and is a larger angle and thereby a sharper diverging route.

I layed an Atlas #4-1/2 over top a full scale printout of a PECO #5, nothing “equivalent” about them at all.

I realize that the details of turnout geometry bore half of you and escape some of you, but that does not change the facts.

And that little tidbit of info is all I have time for…

Sheldon

31

I’ve always assumed that Atlas selected the #4 1/2 because 9 is a sacred number to them. Their turnouts naturally make a crossover with the parallel tracks sitting on two inch centers, right? So that’s 9 inches for two inches. Cut that in half for the frog number calculation of distance over 1, and there you go.

As to why they call it a 4 I figure it had nothing to do more than look like it fits in with 6 and 8.

32

Without guessing or making stuff up, can someone with actual knowledge post a list of frog angles on Atlas Code 83 Custom Line turnouts and Peco Code 83 turnouts?

Rich

33

#4 (4.5 actually) = 12.5 degrees

That is why they make 12.5 and 25 degree crossings, to match the turnouts when making crossovers and such.

#6 = 9.5 degrees

With the matching 19 degree crossing…

#8 = aprox 7 degrees, will confirm later.

Sheldon

34

Thanks, Sheldon. I must be using the wrong term when I say “frog angle”.

What I am interested in learning is the determination of 4.5 for a #4 Atlas Custom Line turnout. What would be the proper reference for 4.5?

I see in one of your earlier replies, you referred to “units”. Is that the proper term?

Rich

35

Equivalent in this context means functionally equivalent, obviously.

Having used all three turnouts for yards: Atlas Code 83 snapswitch, Customline Code 83 #4 and Peco Code 83 #5 I can assure all and sundry that the snapswitch is unsatisactory whereas the Atlas #4 and Peco #5 are functionally equivalent. I prefer the shorter Peco and use the Atlas product only where the convenient surface mount switch machine fits better. Otherwise, I don’t think much of Atlas manufacturing quality. Walthers new lineup looks pretty good compared to Peco and I think they make a #4 if you need one. To get down to 2" track centers the Walthers turnouts will need trimming of the diverging routes but at first glance they appear to be built with that in mind.

As for “fitting in” to this forum I remain confident that I have at no time resorted to making adverse personal comments except as an appropriate rejoinder to the multiple personal attacks directed my way. Many of you would be well advised to get a life rather than respond to anything I post.

For the record and once again, I am impervious to any personal attack. I choose to ignore the more puerile personal improvement guidance, much of which emanates from one particular poster who would do well to follow his own advice…

36

So, would “Frog Number” be “frog units” and is this prototype chart universally applicable to Atlas, Peco, Walthers, etc.?

Rich

37

Rich, are you asking why an Atlas #4 is really a #4-1/2?

It is like measuring two sides of a triangle. Pick a unit, let’s use 1/4".

Start at the tip of the frog, measure away from the points 4-1/2 “units”, or 1-1/8".

Then, at that point, measure the spread of the two diverging rails. It will be 1 unit, or 1/4".

This kind of layout is used in civil engineering and construction because it is easier and more accurate to do in the field than using “degrees”.

A Walthers #4, will have a 1/4" spread at 1", 4 units x 1 unit.

A #6 will have a 1/4" spread at 1-1/2", 6 units x 1 unit.

The chart Greg posted is more precise and reflects actual prototype numbers.

Model manufacturers often round up or down some like ATLAS did.

Sheldon

38

No, I understand the difference, but when I asked earlier if someone could post a list of frog angles on Atlas Code 83 Custom Line turnouts and Peco Code 83 turnouts, I am interested in such a list to determine if the various turnout manufacturers are not accurately stating the number of frog units on their packaging.

For example, using the chart provided by greg, if the frog angle on an Atlas #4 is actually 12.40 degrees, then it is a #4.5, not a #4.

Further, if Peco advertises a turnout as a #5, is the frog angle 11.26 degrees or something more or less than 11.26 degrees?

Rich

39

If you don’t have a chart handy you can use these formulas:

Frog-1 by Edmund, on Flickr

Frog_0001 by Edmund, on Flickr

Frog_fig9 by Edmund, on Flickr

More fun than a Sudoku.

Regards, Ed

40

What you’re asking is, do the manufacturers deviate from Greg’s chart when they design and build their turnouts?

Would an Atlas #6, Peco #6, and Walthers (shinohara) #6 each have the exact same angle as what is listed in Greg’s chart? If not, what is the exact angle of each?

We know that the Atlas #4 is off by enough that it would be better to call it a 4.5.