Hello all,
I got an excellent Christmas gift from my father in law of an athearn 48’ husky stack and a 40’ walthers scene master container. This is my first well car and container so I was wondering if anyone knew if walthers 48’ containers had holes in them to double stack the 40’ container?
thanks
Spartan
i don’t recall ever seeing a 40 on top of a 45 or 48, and have found no photos but attachment points are at 40’, see blue painted spots (top and bottom) on container in above photo, so possible.
Easier to see red spots on this model container
Pretty certain that they do. Match container brands and production runs, some containers have round connectors and others have oval. Check out Kato containers, they attach magnetically.
Anybody know why they always put the longer container on top?
It goes by the size of the well car, and what length of container it’s designed to handle.
Mike
They don’t. It’s far more common, but there’s a couple reasons why things are the way they are.
Most wells out there aren’t long enough to handle 53s in the well, so they’ll always go on top. If you’ve got a 53 foot well, there’s nothing stopping you from putting a 48 on top of your 53 container.
But you can’t put a pair of 20s on top of anything because, aside from a small group of 53s, containers don’t have the locking points or frames needed to mount the 20s on top of a, say, 48. You also can’t put 40s on top of the longer 48s and 53s because they’re too narrow. The longer domestic containers must go on top of the narrow international 40s because of how the connectors and load bearing structure is configured. There’s virtually no 40s in domestic service and any that are would just be international spec anyhow. That’s just how they build them.
The railroads save fuel by putting the longer container on top, as it shortens the gaps between containers thus improving aerodynamics.
They are not only the attachment points for IBC’s, but also the lifting points for the cranes. The spreader bars only extend out to 40ft. Also domestic 48ft, 53ft containers are 102’’ wide. All international 20ft/40ft containers are 96’’ wide so they fit in the container ship racks that are designed so they slide in racks and can be stacked 9 high. No domestic 45ft, 49ft, 53ft can be loaded in a ship container rack. They used to ship some 45ft container on ship, but they were fastened to the deck…until banned from use. You also can’t stack any 48ft/53ft containers over 3 high when empty. They are just not designed to hold the weight. All International containers are made out of cor ten steel. Also most all older 53ft cans like the one JB Hunt and Schneider had…had to be grabbed from the side on top to load or unload…which created a big problem for many Intermodal yards that did not have a crane with a spreader bar that could be lifted from the side. Eventually the Railroads and the shippers got together and made them all standard. So now they all can be lifted from the top at the 40ft. mark where the container is heavily reinforced…where the wider side bars are. The end holes in the 53ft. containers are only for when it is mounted on a chassis…twist locks on the back and steel pins that slide in the front holes after the can is set on the gooseneck of the chassis, then slid forward.
Out of My 45 yrs of Transportation service…25 have been spent in the Intermodal industry…owner operator, crane operator.
Take Care! [:D]
Frank
Walthers containers can go in Athearn cars and Athearn containers can go in Walthers cars. They are fairly compatible. The containers can also be stacked together but they are not as good a fit as if you stacked the same brand together. I have dozens of each brand and I try to keep them stacked only with their own brand. If you mix them, the Walthers need to go on top because their pegs are not as big. All containers 40 feet and longer have the mounting points at 40 feet. The extra length is split and added at both ends. Many of the 48 foot containers are painted to emphasize the overhang of the extended length. Neither Walthers or Athearn are compatible with Concor containers.
Usually the longer containers go on top because the wells of the cars are not long enough for the longer containers. Originally well cars could only hold 40 foot containers on the bottom.
I have not heard about this ban. Please tell us more.
Ed
This is a rare beast that I can’t find an explanation for.
The overwhelming majority of domestic containers only have one set of IBCs on top, set as wide as possible. They have two sets on the bottom, though. One is at the edges of their 102 inches and the other is at 96 to match the international spec. Because of this, mounting a 40 on top of a 53 is largely impossible. The IBCs don’t line up.
If I had to speculate, it seems Pacer has some oddball 53s with extra IBCs on top. I don’t see a lot of their containers go past my office and finding pictures of the top of specific containers is tricky.
IBC’s (intermodal box connectors) are not a part of a container, on top or anywhere else. They are separate items, about 8" in size. I’ve got one over on my other desk.
Yes, 53’s only have one set (4) of locking holes on their top. They are spaced at ISO dimensions, the same as for international 40’s. They are NOT spaced wider. That is why ISO 40’ boxes can be stacked on top (or underneath) the 53’s.
Here is a photo of an EMP 53’ box. Note that it is NOT a Pacer box. The locking holes are noticeable inset from the edge, as compared to a standard ISO box. Three inches, to be exact:
http://www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=47180
Ed
While I have seen them occasionally stacked short one on top, the vast majority of double stacks have the larger one on top.
So, all mine are stacked that way.
But, most model containers will interlock (to an extent) with eachother, with only a couple exceptions.
[#offtopic]
ED,
Just thought I would pass this on to You…the above was from a Maritime ruling, not Railroad related. What I was unaware of at the time of My post, was the fact that the ruling had been changed some time ago and now 45ft. reefers with cooling system on container can be shipped by container ship now that they have special racks on deck for them and can be shipped Internationally. I have been retired for the past 15yrs. so I missed it. Also they still use 45ft. containers with cooling unit that are integral on the container. They also have been shipping 53ft. domestic containers to Guam, Puerto Rico and some other countrys, but most all are shipped with wheels that go on sea-going barges with special drive thru racks on the barge…most all of those go to Puerto Rico shipped by Crowley shipping.
CSX handles the east coast shipping to Puerto Rico and the UP handles the west coast shipping to Seattle and then to the Asian countrys with 45ft. reefers.
Just learned alot this morning from one of My Son’s who lives with Me. He is a ATM for Pacific Rail Services Seattle at the UP Intermodal yard in Joliet Il. They load/unload all Intermodal trains there.
My younger Son is a Yard Master for CSX Intermodal in Bedford Pk, Il. I helped get Him started there when I worked at that yard…He’s been there over 18yrs. now…I have NO clue where the time went…LOL. Pacific Rail Services, Seattle
Frank,
We (including you) been discussing stacking non-40’s for awhile in this topic, so I don’t get the “off topic” emoji.
Anyway, I asked because I photographed a number of Hyundai dry 45’s in a stack train in 2015. So they were “legal” at least until then. Seems to me. And I can’t recall a time when intrnational 45’s were banned. So I asked. Still am, for the details.
If they’re starting to use 45’ reefers in international service, it makes it more likely they’d also use the dry 45’s. Handling either is the same.
For folks interested in how containers are carried on the ships, check this out:
http://www.menkent.dk/picsvend.html
Here’s a hatch cover being lowered over the containers in the hold. Containers can also be stacked on the cover (see foreground cover):
Ed
Interesting stuff Ed, Thanks. I also took some type to learn about IBC’s, how containers are handled, locked together, stacked on ships, etc., etc.
Mike.
The exceptions I’ve found is that Concor containers will only fit together with other Concor containers. And A-line containers only work with other A-line containers. The vast majority of my containers are either Athearn or Walthers. I don’t not own any Atlas containers so I can not comment on them.
I have seen several 40 foot containers stacked on top of 48 foot containers on Santa Fe trains leaving San Bernardino. While it is unusual it is ok to do if the well of the car is long enough to hold the 48 foot containers. Many train cars only have 40 foot wells. My guess is that it just happened to be the way the containers lined up and it would be a waste of time for the workers to stack them differently.
By the way: 20 foot containers were the original length of containers. They always have to go on the bottom now because the 40 foot containers don’t have any support in the middle to hold them. Also in modern times 20 foot containers tend to have very heavy loads inside and if that load was filling a 40 foot container it might be too heavy for the cranes or trucks to handle. Usually 20 foot containers can only ride on the end cars of multi unit well cars so their weight is better supported by the wheels. The units in the center share wheels with the next unit reducing their capacity.
My A-line containers come with little bitty IBC’s, that are separate. As opposed to the common cast on pins in the bottom.
Ed