5x8 or 4x10? Other combinations?

Model Railroader Layouts and layout building
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so I have a 4x8 table ready to go, just haven’t been able to come up with a layout that I want to include all the stuff I want i figured I could add on a bit and get something going. I did come up with something on a 4x10, but it still feels a bit too much in a small space.

Right now I want to get something set up and run some trains. Not to worried about era or line or anything lile that, Im going to mixnit all jist to get something going for now. Im stuck to a table layout as it is going in the garage for now. Eventually I’ll have a room to build a layout, but for now I’m working with what I got.

I’m aiming for a small town with a factory, grain silo, fuel oil dealer, a freight station, and a passenger station. If I had to get rid of one, the fuel oil dealer could go, since its the one building I don’t have. I do want a mix of cars though, box cars, covered hoppers, gondolas, and tankers.

I figure the factory could hold 2 cars, a box car and gondola for scrap steel. Pretty much bring in an empty gondola and a full box car or materials, and take out a full gondola of scrap and a full box car of whatever the factory makes

Grian silo would hold 2 covered hoppers.

Freight Station would hold 2 or 3 boxcars or whatever else would come in.

And the Fuel Oil dealer would have 2 or 3 Tankers.

I’m not sure if on ekf the planned industries could take a tanker to eliminate neeing the fuel dealer for those

What Im asking though, is how should I expand to try and fit it all? Should I add width and make it a 5x8, or length for a 4x10? I figured going one way would be easier to add on than both length and width. I don’t want to add another table to make an L, as I will have to roll it around in the garage when I’m not using it. This also brings up that I will be able to get to it from every side, as I will roll it out into the middle of the garage to run it. I would like to have a doubl

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It might help to look at the library of track plans over at the Atlas website, and I think KATO USA should have a few for you to consider.

Track plans have a way of getting over-involved, or busy, because we think we’re wasting valuable space if we don’t find some kind of trackage to slip between two other tracks. The real world isn’t like that. You’ll get a lot more satisfaction generating some nice scenery and filling the space with well-assembled, painted, and detailed structure kits, and utility poles, and fences, and hedges, but don’t crowd the surface with tracks, even if you have a rather firm idea on the type and number of industries you’d like to have in place. Less is more often in this hobby, and often that is better.

One key element of success to a layout is accessibility. What you can’t easily reach is where you’ll find 80% of the trouble. It’s a rule. So, be very careful about creating a large surface and expecting to not have to drag a footstool over in order to get up and to reach over all those nice utility poles, trees, and structures. Most of us end up struggling to reach efficiently more than about 26" into a scene. Beware!

All this to say that, while a larger surface affords you more space for more stuff, including more trackage, it can become a huge disappointment when you realize you didn’t need it, don’t want it, and it’s gosh darned hard to reach anyway.

If you’d like to hedge your bets, start simple, figure out what’s missing or plain wrong, and then craft something more permanent and fulfilling with the newly gained knowledge. Don’t fix your track into place with any glues or caulking, but use track nails that can easily be pried up and that will allow you to re-lay those track lengths in another configuraiton that is much more appealing or useful…or realistic, maybe.

But I would start with sites that show several

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If you use 5x9 as a base footprint you might find it easier.

Reason is a 24" minimum radius is an easier fit on a 60" wide tabletop.

I assume you decided table top because you want a loop for continuous running.

That’s what we did and to get up and running we built the longest loop with the largest radius we could fit and hooked up the powerpack.

The other thing to remember is that you need room to stand. If you create a round the room, shelf or U shaped layout you make more efficient use of the available floor space. Bonus is the reach over to the back of the layout is much easier.

Play around with some 1/4 graph paper. Dig out those old compasses from your high school geometry set.

If you start with minimum radius you can put up with, and in this case larger is always better if it fits, then draw in the curves you have to have (any continuous running loop really determines the minimum layout space) you can get there.

To accommodate future plans you find places in the loop on your table to either put turnouts with stub sidings in now or leave room to do so later. At least one point on the tabletop loop should provide an exit and return track to connect the loop to extensions you plan to add later. One idea is to plan for the tabletop to become a peninsula in a later round the room layout. That cuts the maximum reachover in half. At one end you allow for tracks to leave the loop in both directions for later connections.

For maximum mainline length on a tabletop try a folded dogbone with some sort of crossover. Conceptually you can draw it out as a dogbone shape and then fold it over so the one end of the dogbone fits “over” the other. There are useful layout diagrams on the internet as well as whole books about this, showing these various ways to get there in small spaces.

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Were it my piece of plywood, I’d cut it in half and make a 2’x16’ switching layout, as running trains in a circle/oval won’t entertain you for too long. Later, when you have more room, it could be incorporated into a larger around-the-room layout.

Wayne

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Hi WDodge.

  1. Is your layout going to be an island that can be accessed from all sides?

  2. Are you wanting continuous (loop) running on the layout?

  3. Does the layout need to be able to be moved?

If it is an island, a 5 by 10 offers infinitely more options than a 4 by 8.

-Kevin

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The down side to a 4 foot wide layout is curves are limited to sharp 18 and 22 inch radius. If you only plan on running short rolling stock, such as 4-axle diesels or 40 and 50’ freight cars, then that may be ok. But even if you do plan to limit yourself, you may change your mind and want to run longer rolling stock later.

That said, a wider layout such as 5 feet (60 inches) would allow for broader curves. That way you could incorporate 28 inch curves and if couble track, inner radius of 25 1/2 inches. Some long rolling stock have minimum radius of 24 inches for example, such as passenger cars.

Of course if you tire of trains going in circles, design in some switching as well.

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First question I think would be just how much room do you have? An island layout, especially if going bigger than a 4x8, needs access on all sides, so the total floor space can be quite significant. There are other ways to arrange benchwork in the same overall room size that allow for broader curves and a longer run, even retaining a continuous run.

A 4x8 or even a 5x10 (it just to be easy to get plywood in 5x10 sheets in addition to 4x8 - not so much any more, especially from the big box stores - plus there’s the issue of getting it home - a 4x8 fits width-wise in my medium size pickup, but a 5’ wide sheet wouldn’t) can manage if one of the short suides is butted against a wall - as long as you can get all the way down the two long sides, you would be able to reach the middle of the side that is against the wall, as it would be a 2 or 2 1/2’ reach. Once you go 6x10, now you’re talking a 3’ reach - generally not a comfortable reach unless you are very tall, have freakishly long arms, or the layout is build quite low. And bigger than that - forget it, without climbing ont he table. Not a problem in the beginning, but once you have scenery down, you’re not want to crawl on it. Otherwise, you need to cut access hatches and make removable scenery. Considering a 6x10 with one 6’ side against the wall will need a room space of at LEAST 8x14 to be able to walk around the 3 open sides. And in an 8x14 room, you can do a lot better than a 6x10 rectangle.

If there is room, a combination could work, say a 5x10 so you cna go with a 24" minimum radius, and then a peninsula stickign out from that for a switching area and/or off-layout staging. That gives a decent compromise between a simple to build but in the end kind of boring round and round and a pure switching layout with no room to just let the trains roll once in a while.

&n

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The suggestion has been made to you in multiple threads to consider 5-foot-wide benchwork for the acknowledged benefits over the 4X8 “sacred sheet.” Still good advice.

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The problem I have is I already have a 4x8 table. If I was building from scratch I’d go with a 5x10 or bigger, but since I’m already on a 4x8, whats the best way to make it better. Is width better, or length?

If you can only expand in one direction, which would be better?

Adding width amd length to the table wpuld just make an awkward mess trying to peice it together.

Width of course gets a bigger radius curve, but that also eats into some of the length, correct?

Everything I have that I’ll be running i have ran around on my currect 4x8 double loop made with 18" curves. The passenger cars and the one 6 axle tyco train work fine. I only have 4 axles other than that. As for cars I don’t plan anything bjgger than 50’, I only have 40’ now I think, or something like it.

My aim is that amateur railroader layout with not much scenery, something that would be built more for a kid than anything. Reason being is as a kid the double oval I have now was what my grandma had set up, amd what I had. She just had some buildings on it, no real scenery or roads or anything. The base board was painted for the Atlas HO24, SIMPLICITY & GREAT PLAINS layout that was set up at one point.

Realism isn’t supposed to be there, but it is.

I think sticking with the 4ft width and adding length to it will be what I go with. I can take a 4x8 and just stretch it. Interchange, grain silo, fuel dealer, factory and freight station for rail served things, with some town buildings thrown throughout.

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If you make it wider and use larger radius curves, then there won’t be as much straight track on the length side

What we did on the layout we set up when I was a kid - we didn’t have space for anything permanent, so it only went up Thanksgiving thru New Year - was to add on a 2’ wide piece at one end, makign is a 4x10, then we added on 6" wide by 10’ long pieces on the front and back, making it a 5x10 overall. This allowed us to add an outside loop of 22" radius to run the Rivarossi Hudsona nd Tyco passenger train it pulled, as well as adding extra tracks for parking trains and added a log dump down on the 2’ extension (part of this went behind the mountain we had on that end). That made it stretch wall to wall (on the 10’ side) against the wall under the windows of the family room.

–Randy

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Hi Wdodge0912,

I don’t know if you have been following my thread, but I’m building a 5’4" x 12’ layout in my 2 1/2 car garage. That may be a bit too large for your space, but the size has worked well for me. The reason for the 5’4" (64") width is that a 4x8 sheet of plywood can be cut at the 64" mark leaving 32". Putting two 32" pieces together equals 64". The whole surface can be covered with two sheets of plywood with no waste. However, the real advantage is that the 5’4" width allows for larger radii.

The layout is on casters so it is easy to move. I have also built it so that the benchwork can be rotated to allow me to work on the underside without having to crawl under the layout.

Here is a link to my layout construction thread. It has grown into a bit of a monster in terms of size, but if you start with the latest thread and work backwards you might save yourself some time:

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/t/281323.aspx

Dave

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I’m going to put sides on the table so I can use the full width without trains falling off. Eventually it’ll be an around the room layout, just have to wait for the room to open up.

I have an Athearn passanger train, amd F unit and some cars, they all go aroind the 18" curves I have now set up.for a double loop. The 6 axle Tyco C630 I do believe it is, works as well around them

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Armstrong’s track planning book shows how to maximize a 4x8 sheet for HO scale.

Page 87. You cut 45 degree pieces off at the 48" inch mark of the sheet BUT don’t cut all the way across. The idea is to create a 4x4 sheet with a “diamond” corner to stick into the corner of the room. The odd shaped piece (kind of like a flat end chevron) is cut from the cut out point to the end of the sheet. This creates two pieces that are then reversed so the long edges butt and the straight across end is butted to the straight across end of the 4x4 pointed piece.

Result is a table that is 12x4 with all four corners “cut off” at 45 degrees. The “centre” is 4x4. The shape is remotely “boat shaped”. This exploits the rectangular 4x8 table top area by using the otherwise unusable corners to create extra length. The maximum possible radius of the curves is the same as on a 4x8 sheet.

Now if you just add little bumpouts at the critical points you can get quite large radius curves with minimal intrusion into your space. Done in a modular style you can build a layout that can be stored in 4x6 space (which is under a double bed.) which makes me think about the possibilities of just building a layout inside a Murphy Bed frame…hmmmmm.

That fits the most track into 4x8 plywood. It also creates a useful peninsula style layout with a maximum 24" reach. Bonus, this peninsula is dead easy to tie into an around the room shelf layout as your obsession takes firm hold of your entire existence. You know you want a roundhouse and turntable, or a five track sorting yard…and a 150’ mainline that looks double tracked for long sections but oh so cleverly isn’t.

Instead, if you cut both bits in half through the point then that same 4x8 fits a corner in an around the room or shelf layout with a 45 degree corner joint. Makes 20x2 with equal length runs out from the corner of a room. Put reversing loops on each end and…then sign up for MRRA (H

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Which book? A few came up in a Google search, not sure which one.

Something I’ve been thinking about with the 4x10 is not having an interchange. But also not looping. Having exits at each corner of one of the long sides. What that would let me do is have like a 2ft or 2.5ft wide x 10 section, and bridging across to it. Probably have a yard on the small table peice.

I’d add a shelf to the table and slide the small section and bridges underneath the 4x10 when not in use. I could use it as a point to point as well when the small section amd bridges aren’t set up. I wouldn’t worry too much about the distance between the main table and bridge section, since I can just disconnect the bridges and move it out of the way. The bridges would be able to also hang off the table or something, so they would be long enough to be used as a cassette.

It would be like having a much wider table without the need tk build the table. Maybe if I figure out the space I might have enough room to set up another 4x8 amd bridge the 2 sections together.

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Hi Wdodge0912,

Why Lastspikemike would leave you guessing is beyond me. He was referring to John Armstrong’s ‘Track Planning for Realistic Operations’. It is considered by many to be a “must read”. For me personally, it was a real wake up call! I had supposedly designed my perfect layout. After I read the book I realized that my dream layout was almost totally disfunctional.

Get yourself a copy. It might be the best investment that you will make in the hobby.

https://www.amazon.ca/Track-Planning-Realistic-Operation-Armstrong/dp/0890242275/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Track+Planning+for+Realistic+Operations&qid=1601882562&sr=8-1

This is a Canadian listing but you will be able to find one easily in the US.

Cheers!!

Dave

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I just ordered it on Amazon with 1 day shipping, so I’ll have it tomorrow.

What would be a good width for a bridge to join 2 tables together?

I was thinkj g leave the 4x8 as a 4x8, amd have it exit on 1 long and 1 short side. Like an L shape. Id get another 4x8 amd cut it to 2 2x8s. Id make one a small yard that exits on the short side amd enters on the long side, same as the long side of the 4x8. The lther 2x8 section would have the center cut out to make ita 1ft wide U that is 8ft long, to connect the short sides of the tables. Id use that extra 1ftx6ft inside to make 3 2ft long x1ft sections to link all 3 together. Only thing would be to get the U standing on it’s own as well as the small table, amd linking them together

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I predict that you will be amazed by how much insight into model railroading that Armstrong’s book will give you!

Enjoy!

Dave

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Not sure if that works from my phone, not sure how to get the embed codes from there on mobile, but seems the same as another post I had made, so hopefully it’ll work

So pretty much I’d take a 4x8, cut it in half, than cut a 1x6 out of one half, and split that into 3 1x2 sections. Sine main line, but a big loop. Would give me 2ft minimum inside the layout for one bridge section, but like I said I can disconnect and move it if I need to get to the inside of the 4x8. That corner away from the trackswould be set up to only be the town buildings I want to have that arent rail served, so should be able to get to everything from the outside. The layout was just tossed on there to kinda show what im thinking, I’d actually have to throw it in the software to see if it would work.

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Has the plan evolved into more of an around the room design, as suggested by the last drawing? That is a different shape than what your started with.

Respectfully, your comments suggest that you are trying to build a layout from a prescribed amount or type (4x8 sheets) of lumber.

Why not design the layout you want, then simply acquire the lumber you need? Acquisition of needed lumber is the easy part.