No offense, but your latest post is so lame that I can’t stop laughing. Rumors are very difficult to squelch, and I’d wager that “trainsandmusic” and “cwburfle” have at least partially bought into yours, along with who knows how many others who have had the good sense to remain on the sidelines. Your original post warning about the “press pin” was useful and informative; the stuff about “Madison Hardware?” or “some other company that used their name” was, in my opinion, ill-advised. What you appear to have implied is not a simple mechanical adjustment, but rather a conspiracy by an individual or corporation intended to defraud. Never mind my “lawyer’s briefcase,” but perhaps you’d do well to read up on the finer points Libel and Slander law. You still haven’t revealed the source of the “info I [you] read” as far as I can tell. Be advised that my thoughts are both friendly and free. I sincerely hope that the next lawyer you encounter isn’t working for Mr. Kughn…
WOW we really stirred the pot on this one. Almost like who shot Kennedy, grassy knoll, CIA. But who cares. Everyone is entitled to there consperisy therory. I was into gun collecting for a while and in alot of books when it came to rare varients and odd ones it said at the bottoms of the listing “Beware of fakes” or “Often reproduced” I haven’t seen anything like that in the train books I read. Maybe the people at “DELETED DUE TO LIABILTY” little joke their HAHA did what I said early maybe some one wanted a 682 but not the price and they converted 681’s for them. We all know that unless we buy a trains brand new we usauly get them when the origanal owner has gone to the Pearly Gates and family members don’t know what they have. I have engines I like to call Frankenstiens cause I used what ever I had to get them running. Now my wife doesn’t know this and if one day she sells them as far as she knows they’re original. Any way we all try to get the trains as cheap as possible by trying to put up the show that we’re really not that interested in it, it’s not quite what we’re looking for or it’s in worse shape than we think it’s in. Thats the fun of the hobby.
Pardon me, but I fear you have missed the point. Consider the possibility that when your wife sells your estate some buyer discovers that his train wasn’t exactly what he expected ; and then alleges in some public forum that your wife is a “scam artist” who “knowingly misrepresented the quality or originality of the items she was selling” from your estate.
Once the rumor gets out there, will it matter that the accusation is false? Wait until others, perhaps even your former friends, chime in by asking what additional scams she has been involved with. The fact that they ask about “additional” scams will indicate that they have accepted the initial allegations as true. By definition, you won’t be there to defend her. Who will?
The last few posts in this thread, as bothersome as they may be to some members, have never been about minor alterations which may-or-may-not have been made to certain locomotives. They have been about unsupported allegations of deliberate fraudand misrepresentations against folks who are presumed to be honorable. It could just as easily happen to your wife. You might think about that possibility when considering whether to support rempant gossip and rumor-mongering.
An interesting story by Carl Shaw of the MADISON HARDWARE CO. IN NEW YORK CITY in the March 2007 CTT. It involved the NYC boxcar with doors painted brown…a color that was NOT original, but was painted on by “store personnel” when they painted the doors of surplus door shells. How VERY interesting. [:-^]
Of course Madison Hardware in New York (and more-than-likely Richard Kughn’s “Madison Hardware” in Michigan) modified Lionel equipment, surplus and otherwise. They were “Service Centers” for Pete’s sake!
The issue is your still-unsupported allegation of deliberate fraud-for-extra-profit at Madison Hardware in Michigan. So far, you haven’t even come close to proving your point. Are you saying that Mr. Shaw has “come clean” and acknowledged participating in a scheme to defraud. I haven’t read the article and really don’t know. Besides, that would have been New York, not Michigan. Yes?
What you have alleged may be true. On the basis of what you have presented so far, however, most likely it is not. I’m persuaded that you innocently posted a nasty rumor and are now scrambling to try to support it. In my opinion that’s not the right order in which to do things. It always carries the potential of doing considerable harm. I believe that we need fewer emoticons and more rational thinking; although I fully realize that emotions always prevail over reason – at least in the short run.
Unless something really new crops up, I’m not going to spend any more time on this. If nothing else, I hope we will all be a bit more careful about the rumors we spread. By the way, does everyone know that the CIA buried Jimmy Hoffa under the grassy knoll?
Well those faked NH boxcars are sure evidence enough for me of fraud, and they didn’t repaint them just for funsies. That article is straight out of CTT. If you want to believe that MH has halos around it and walks on water, that’s YOUR choice. As to harm, the only harm I see being done is to those who get duped into paying big $$$ for fakes.
BF you make a good point . I never heard that rumor about 682’s untill here. We could think of a million possibilties or conspericies on the 681/682 Caper. I’m not promoting anyone’s rumor or spreading it. I never heard anything about Madison Hardware except that they made parts and you can tell they differ from Lionel. We all know that their are people who say and fake rare items to defraud. If it is rockets, boats, cars or any other part that is commonly lost on trains their is a repo for it and then there be someone who dosen’t know and might say it’s a rare version of the train. You see it all the time on E-Bay “Don’t know much about trains” Don’t want anyone mad at me so I’m done with this. Just being a devils advocite (wish there was spell check on this) All this has done for me is that I’m deffinitly going to try to make a 681 a 682. I should post the pictures of the progress. Does anyone had a 681 the are selling? HAHAHA
Anyway for the price my wife would prob sell my trains at I don’t think anyone would care if it’s a fake or not. When I talk about a 2020 she thinks it the news show. To her should I even say god forgive me “They’re toys”
And yes, they are. Only because some people are prepared to pay hundreds of dollars more for an identical piece of “junk” only because it has 2 extra rivets and an extra tiny piece of metal attatched it’s very lucrative to add those “spareparts” to the ones that don’t have that. Or to give 2 tiny pieces of plastic another color so the whole looks (and sells) a bit better.
Any person with an IQ higher than the average baboon knows that it (has been) done. But to call it a fraud? No way, Lionel itself build the 682 exactly the same way. Take the cheap version, add the spares and voila, off you go. Lionel made a box to go with it, with the number on it. If you want to have an original, buy one with all the boxes etc. As soon as the boxes are gone, any “aftermarket” conversion is exactly the same as Lionel’s original. You, nor anyone else, can tell if the loco is original. Any 682 without all boxing and operators manual is nothing more then a cheap version with some extra’s. No matter if it’s done by Lionel or at someones kitchen table, because you can’t tell the difference.
The whole problem is with the collectors. As soon as the collectors decide that a 682 without the boxes is not an original and is not sold or sold at the same or lower price then the cheap version, those conversions stop. It’s not a lucratrive business anymore. The problem is that the collectors keep treating possible rebuilds as original because they have dollar signs in their eyes and want to use trains to invest their money.
Trains are not an investment, they are toys! An original 682 turbine, with boxes, manuals and all odds and ends is not for sale at $300! The seller doesn’t live on the moon. As long as people are buying stuff like this (look alikes without the boxes or other proof of originallity), it’s completely logical that people