I posted these questions yesterday on the Classic Trains forum, but no one has been able to help me.
In general, is a 4-6-4 Hudson longer then a 4-6-2 Pacific? If yes, by how much? Can a 4-6-4 Hudson be turned on a 90’ turntable? Does anyone have an IHC Hudson - How are they compared to the Spectrum series steamers from Bachmann?
Thanks.
Ezielinski,
In general a Hudson is longer than a Pacific. I am sure there are exceptions to this.
Generally you can turn a Hudson on a 90’ turntable.
I have a 98’ turntable and turn my NYC Niagras (4-8-4) on it. this just goes to show you how wrong generalizations can be. The NYC had the engines built to fit on smaller turntables than would be normally used to turn an engine of this size. The pilot hung out over the end of the turntable, as well as the end of the tender, but they could turn them.
Did you want to know the length of the engine, or the shortest turntable you could use to turn the engine? Reading the previous sentence you will see that is two different questions.
I have an IHC Dryfus Hudson and it runs poorly, but it looks good on the shelf with my 20th Century Limited. If you are refering to the new improved Hudson that is a different animal than the older ones with the RP25 flanges, and much different than the really old ones with the large flanges, also made by AHM.
I will measure several NYC Hudsons tomorrow and give you a better answer. I am at work right now and can’t lay my hands on a Hudson.
Paul,
Dayton and Mad River RR
Thank you. I understand that, depending on the class and manufacturer of the Hudson, the total length can vary. I think I have seen Hudsons anywhere from 96 (NYC) to 114 (Santa Fe) feet in length.
I have a Walthers 90’ turntable (12 3/8" deck rails) and was wondering if I would be able to turn one on it. I was looking at the IHC Premier Series PRR 4-6-4 Hudson.
Whether a Hudson is longer than a Pacific is influenced by several things:
The only way to determine if a given Hudson is longer, shorter or the same length as a specific Pacific is to check the length between coupler faces.
Chuck (who doesn’t own either a Pacific or a Hudson)
Well, here’s the answer I gave to your post in the Classic Trains forum yesterday:
There might be an exception somewhere…the Omaha road’s 600-class Pacifics were HUGE 4-6-2’s (the biggest ever built) while the New York Central’s Hudsons weren’t terribly large…but generally yes, a Hudson would be bigger than a Pacific. A Hudson was in effect a Pacific that had it’s firebox stretched (to allow more fuel to be burned, producing more heat and therefor more steampower) to the extent it took a 4-wheel truck to support it, instead of just two wheels.
For turntables, it would depend on the tender and engine together. Either engine with a large ‘centipede’ tender might not fit on a turntable that it would have fit on with a smaller tender. Some railroads specifically ordered engines with small tenders so that they could fit them on their existing turntables. Soo Line did this with their 4-8-4’s for example, and I think the Missabe did it with their 2-8-8-2’s, both of these engines were big engines with small tenders with two 2-axle trucks.
Stix
Thanks for the replys. I like BIG steamers, but I’m on a budget (new baby on the way in 5 months) and my layout has a 90’ turntable. That’s why I was looking at the IHC 4-6-4. I know that they are very generic and not very prototypical, but that is about all I can afford right now. Does anyone have one, and if so, how long are they?
ezielinski,
Welll I went home and did some measuring, the results follow. The prototype measurements are axle Center Lines.
Model Information:
J3A Riverossi 1938 Dryfus Hudson: 12 1/4" (about 89’ scale)which is just a little bit longer than the C/L of the axles. This will give you enough room to turn the engine. Pilot to tender coupler Pulling face: 13 1/3" (about 96 scale feet.) This should be the nearly same running gear as the engine you mentioned
Key Imports J1E: 12 1/4" (about 89’ scale) Pilot to tender coupler pulling face: about 98’ scale.
Broadway Limited Imports J1: 87’ scale, 12" actual. Pulling faces of couplers: 13 1/4
Prototype Information:
1950-52 Locomotive Cyclopedia J3A #5405 - 5454 the axle ceners 83’ 71/2".
NYC Later Steam Interestlingly the S1 4-8-4 Niagras #6000 - 6025 axle C/L: 97’ 2 1/2", overall 115’ 9 9/16"
I measured the models on my 98’ turntable. I measured them by eyeballing them and measuring them with a Stanley tape measure and a General scale ruler. I rounded up to the nearest 1/8"so I may be off by a maximum of 1/8" actual. I then remeasured with a scale ruler and followed
Some other factors come into play also. The PRR E6s Atlantics (4-4-2) had boilers almost as big as some 2-8-0’s of the day. In southern Michigan they have the Little River pacific that almost looks like a narrow gauge engine it is so small and short. On the other hand the PRR used the same boiler on the K4 as they used on the L1s 2-8-2. So my point is that the steaming requirements made for boilers of varying lengths and diameters which also influrnece length of the engine. It is also possible to lengthen the firebox forward instead of to the rear keeping the engine shorter in the case of the Hudson. Real railroads had the same problem you are having with size restrictions influencing their purchase and operating practices. They didn;t want to replace engine facilities and waste capital every time a new class was bought.
ndbprr
The Pennsy E-6 used the same boiler as the H-8/9/10 2-8-0s and the G-5 4-6-0. PRR wasn’t called the standard railroad of the world without valid reason - they standardized EVERYTHING. If something worked, they didn’t reinvent the wheel when another, near-identical requirement came up.
With a three point turntable, the limitation is simply that the wheel flanges of the lead axle and the rear tender axle have to clear the rails on the turntable apron. Older “balanced” turntables had to be longer, since the center of gravity of the loco/tender combination being turned had to be kept quite close to the center, directly over the center bearing. This meant that a fully serviced loco wouldn’t be placed at the same spot on the table as the same loco with depleted fuel and water.
To overcome the “long loco, short turntable” problem when UP sent 4-6-6-4’s into eastern Nebraska, the loco would be turned before servicing. Some kind of lifting chock was placed under the third pedestal axle of the 4-10 tender, raising the last two axles high enough to clear the approach rails and allowing the 100 foot turntable to turn a loco with a 106+ foot wheelbase. Talk about overhang!
Chuck
Hi Ez,
When the railways ran across this worry they could “split” a loco and tender. Then turn the two items individually, then couple them back together. A lot of work, but it had to be done from time to time when a loco was running to a destination of its beaten track.
The N&W had separate “Mallet House” engine houses built for it’s biggest engines, many of which were too big for their existing roundhouses and turntables. No reason you couldn’t have a “squarehouse” near your roundhouse to hold a couple of your biggest steam engines. I think the IHC two-stall engine house is fairly long inside as I recall?? (Otherwise you could kitbash two of them together - or do the same with a couple of Walthers ones.)
C&O did the same thing. Five F-19 Pacifics were rebuilt at Huntington Shops in 1946 as streamlined L-1 Hudsons. This lengthened them from 95’ 6 1/4" over the couplers to 102’ 4" although the extra 7’ isn’t evident in side-by-side photographs. (see C&O Power by Shuster, Huddleston and Staufer) In my humble opinion, it also converted them from elegant classics to ugly ducklings. [:(]
This cracks me up! [:D] More proof that “there’s a prototype for everything”. Now how can I duplicate this in HO?
Chuck