One of the most interesting and time consuming aspects of collecting vintage toy trains is undoubtedly variations. These differences in the manufacture of various items by Lionel are highly studied and documented in Postwar, although not so much for us prewar folks. Although i collect Ives, i also enjoy Prewar Lionel, especially the O-27 trains the firm produced from 1936-1942. That after all is where my collecting roots lie. My first vintage train was a 1689e set from 1937.
I have begun a study of variations involving the 1666(e) steam locomotives produced by the firm from 1938-1942 and again after WWII from 1945?-47. I feel we all could enjoy inspecting our locomotives to see if my assumptions are correct and hopefully add some new variations. The 1666 was a diecast steam engine which was modeled after the NYC J-1 hudson. Lionel intended it to be a “scale detailed” locomotive, they did a good job, it resembles the prototype closely(for a TOY train).
The loco shared its boiler shell with the 1664 and 224 which were introduced the same year, and also the 229 which steamed into the lineup a year later. The 224 and 229 where O gauge models and the 1664/1666 were sold in the o-27 line. Many characteristics of the 1666 are shared with its siblings. I have prepared below a list of variations, i will in time begin building a library of photographs to display the variations. I invite reader reports of their locomotives as well as critiques or corrections, lets have some fun with this. If your locomotive has been restored or shows signs of replacement parts please add that in. The youngest of these engines is 61 years old so their are bound to be inconsistencies due to disassembly and modifications.
A short rant. As a obsessive person, with an eye for detail i have noticed that the plate holding the drawbar located under the cab of 1666 locos never seems to be consistently mounted, some bein
Fantastic post - just the kind of thing I like to read about. Here’s a question for you: I have a 224 which has been separated from its original tender. It has no dome bumps, the squared-off back of cab, and is black with black handrails. Is it 45 or 41-42? It doesn’t have the funky drawbar thing but I’m pretty sure the loco was modified. Any ideas? Thanks for your help.
AFML, what is this “X” stamped version, i’ve never heard of it. I suppose they did make the locos in 45’ if you both have black handrail locos.
As for your missing tender, the 45’ version was paired with a 2466w. The tender would have flying shoe trucks. If it is a late 42’ model you could pair it with a 2224 plastic tender. I’ve never inspected the “special means of coupling the loco and tender” on a 45’ engine.
I dont think my 1666E came with a headlight. It has a bracket on the plate that holds the front guide truck to but there are no evidence of any other wires that could go too a headlight. The only wires ive seen either go to the E-unit or the motor. Did some of these engines didnt come with a headlight from the factory? Mine has the hatches on top of the sandbox. I think mine was made in 1939 because in the set the Babe Ruth boxcar said “new in 1939”. It has a sheet metal tender with the hook style couplers and the Lionel Lines name is stamped on, not a seperate metal plate. The engine’s cab number is on a seperate plate and not stamped on decal. It has spoked drive wheels and all the rods are held on buy hex nuts exeptfor the accentric cranks. Those are held on by phillups head type screws. There is one hole at the bottom of the smokebox below the walkways on the side of the boiler on both sides of the engine. There is also a hole in each side of the firebox and they are below the walkaways also. I’m not shure if these are screw holes.
I highly doubt any 1666’s where produced without headlights. It was a feature even found on ultra low end items. The wire would have led to the tab on the e-unit, it could easily have pulle dloose, leaving no evidence that it ever was there. The extra holes you describe where for mounting different motors in the casting. As stated before the casting was shared by 4 locomotives, so Lionel made provisions in the basic tooling for all motor applications. The baby ruth boxcar you have (should have a maroon roof) was the version new in 1940.
Good detail, I seem to recall an nice article in CTT in the 90’s about these engines. The sand dome details for example I think have been shown to have been removed from the different loco’s castings at different times. I guess I mean that the 1664/E, 1666/E, 229, 224/E all had some slight variations that differentiated them at various times.
Of intertest for example are the various 229 and 1664 engines with white rubber stamped small numbers in the slot that a number plate would have been. Probably an example of Lionel exhausting supply of number plates but still needing those loco’s for sets.
I aquired a 229 engine (number stamped as described above) with a 2689wX tender with the 1940 high coupler truck normally found on 2613 passenger cars along with the two tone green 2613,14,15 passenger cars also from 1940. The tender did not look to have ever been apart judging by the tabs and the general condition of all the parts. Of course this was never cataloged as a set, but I suspect it was sold a an uncataloged set. Sorry for the rant as this is out of scope of the original post…
Another neat variation was the 224 (not an E) passenger set I aquired with the diecast 2224T tender and 2642,42,43 brown passenger cars with the 41-42 box couplers. You would expect this set to have had a plastic 2224 tender not the diecast on and you would expect a set that had the diecast tender to come with a 224E not a 224 engine so I find this one neat as well. Again this was a set purchased from the original owner (claimed anyway)
There was an uncatalogued set that included a 229 with the late rubber stamped 2800 series cars. The set included the uber rare tuscan 2813 cattle, too bad you didnt get the cars. Still a rare tender!
Unfortunately the diecast 2224w in set 140w as mentioned is more difficult to explain, maybe you got an early production set, or Lionel had some extra cast tender laying around…
Agreed, How early did they make 224’s and how late did they make diecast 2224T’s or W’s Could be in this case the fact that my set has a 2224T and not a 2224W could be important as well. Possibly the stack of built and boxed 2224T’s did not get used up as quickly as the W’s since I would expect most of those sets contained the whistle tender.
I did get the two tone green 2613,14,15 with the 229. I’d like to find some confirmation that that was really an uncataloged set. While not Uber rare, the TT green cars are tough and can be expensive. Funny thing is the exact sum I paid for the set was coverd by an auction sale I made for a decent condition Dorfan double light pole that I paid $5 for so, if I twist it right in my mind it was a great buy![;)]
I’ll look, but I have seen them come both ways. I personally prefer to turn them when I work on one such that the drawbar sticks out the least amount.
I have not seen the 1664/229 style plate and rear truck on the 1666 but I only have two of those. one prewar 1666 (no E) with ridges on the sand dome and a postwar with rubber stamp and curved rear cab floor nickle railings.
Interesting the 1666 with ridges occurs but the 224’s, at least the three I have, do not have ridges. You would expect they changed from E plates to non E plates across the line at the same time, however, they would have used up what ever E plates were left which could lead to variations in timeframe when comparing, say, 224 (E)'s and 1666 (E)'s.
I do have an early 675 with no front coupler with a 671 drawbar rivited to its rear truck. It was pretty beat up and came with its original consist of cars, although beat up. It was the 1947 set with the 2555 2458 3559 and 2357 with plastic stack and inward facing brake wheels. This only means it was an early set for 47 due to the caboose. So the questin is is it possible the 675 could have come with the 671 drawbar early in its production run or was it replaced by a repair station ( the more likely scenario)? The fact that the whole set was beat up and such leads me to belive at the very least the engine had the 671 drawbar for a looong time.
Looked at the rear truck plates and there is evidence of assembly both ways on the plates. Its interesting that the 224,229,1664 plate with the truck mounting tab only has one set of holes and the 1666 plate has two sets.
Well the e-unit drum idea is an interesting one that i’ve played with. The early 38 engines seem to have a glossy bright lime green one, then in 39 seems to have went to black, and seems to have gone to red in late 40’.
Sorry for the delay… I’ve been dealing with that four letter word…W O R K! LOL!!
First, a couple of pics:
Now a few words from Bruce Greenberg:
"(A) Early 1946, number plates with “1666” in silver on a black background. The bell mechanism consisted of two parts: a bell (machined out of brass and plated) with horizonjtal shart mounted on stamped-steel bracket, which in turn was fastened by a screw to the boiler. The pilot and steam chest were mounted by screws, which in drilled and tapped holes in the boiler casting, the front truck was cast, the center drive wheel on each side had slots to receive the nibs of the cast eccentric crank, the eccentric crank was attached by a slot-headed screw, the rear truck mounting-plate holes were drilled and tapped into the casting, and the headlight socket had a screw base, black handrails and cotter pins.
(B) Early 1946, same as (A), but nickel-finished handrails and cotter pins.
(D) Same as (B), but smooth sand dome and 3/8" high “X” on left firebox door."
MUCH MORE info available!
Please also note: “The prewar 1666 has a pair of raised ovals which are not present on the postwar version. (The same change occurred to the 224 after 1938, during the prewar period.” "So far, we have not turned up any evidence that the 1666 was produced in late 1945. However, we have one report (Make that two! I have the same set!) from J. Foss of a 1666 locomotive which came with a 2666WX tender, a 2454 PRR boxcar, a 2452 gondola, and a 2457 caboose. Alll three of the cars and tender have the early trucks with the open coil, whirly wheels, and thick axles. There is a slim chance that this set may have been mad
Sorry for the late replies gentlemen. Work and school, and broken volkswagens have occupied my train time lately. That 1666 with the X is really interesting. Doesnt seem to be a normal occurance for Lionel. Ill update the chart when i get a sec. It’s nice to see some pics of postwar 1666’s.
