There already has been 7 Air line that have filed Bankrupt in this country. Add Two more to that list. As for Amtrak I think that this a major wake up call for Amtrak. What is it? Northwest air lines and Delta just filed chapter 7 or 11 yesterday.
Now that the Air line are taking a major hit,I think now is the time for Amtrak to get it’s head together and try to get back costomers big time. As far as I can it…
Now the Green light it pointing at Amtrak…It’s Amtrak’s move now…
Allan.
Unfortunately, Amtrak is hogtied by government actions (or in this case, inaction). Since Secretary Minetta is insisting that Amtrak become profitable, he should also attach the same requirement to the airlines. Of course to REALLY level the field, the airlines should be billed for the terminal services, air traffic control system, all FAA functions, etc. (yeah, like THAT will happen).
Allan-
I think Amtrak is carrying as many passengers as they can right now. Their problem is equipment. I believe if they had another 10 engines and 100 cars they would be put to full use. Due to Katrina the Sunset was cancelled (Texas Eagle has the schedule west of San Antonio), the CONO stopped at Memphis and the Crescent stubbed at Atlanta. That saved 5 trainsets which were needed elsewhere and probably well used. I am really surprised Amtrak stopped serving Houston.
Amtrak needs to lobby in Washington for funding during this Airline crisis, not look for more passengers.
Both are chapter 11, and none of the airlines troubles will translate into a single extra rider for Amtrak. Amtrak goes where it goes, and very infrequently.
Rail travel simply isn’t a substitute for air travel, and never will be. Try going from Denver to Dallas on the train. How about Minneapolis to Los Angeles. How about anywhere to Las Vegas.
The only chance rail passenger travel has, is if airplanes run out of fuel, or simply become too expensive.
Get over trying to improve Amtrak, it ain’t gonna happen.
So true, and it’s a real pity. Amtrak would have long ago gone into chapter 11 if it hadn’t been a step-child of the government. Instead it’s in a political limbo of perpetual de facto bankruptcy, it has absolutely no freedom of action. If the politicians could kill it quietly, they would.
And those are very few places indeed for country like the US.
I’ve said elsewhere the competitive environment for Amtrak’s long distance trains is about to become much more dire as very light jets, a new type of airplane, start coming online.
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=40942&REPLY_ID=426566#426566
As air taxis they will address the non-scheduled and small traffic markets.
You’re too optimistic.
Amtrak’s customers are a unique niche of the traveling public. Other than a complete stoppage of the airline network (like post-9/11), ridership won’t rise appreciably.
Now how Amtrak can better serve that niche, and whether or not the government should subsidise them while they service that niche is subject of countless debates here and other places.
Here’s an idea, the Feds should take over all the passenger airlines…we’ll call it AmPlane! [:P]
On a scale of one to ten,How would you rate Amtrak’s attendence rate of just how many passengers that do ride Amtrak today? Allan.
According to USA Today, 51.5% of the nation’s airline capacity is now in Chapter 11. What was the Hill quote? “neither useful or ornamental”.
I think you will find that throughout history the FEds have bailed out many a company including the railroads. CNW, Rock Island, Conrail come to mind. The fact is that air travel is much more important to commerce and the average traveler than rail is at this point in time.
miker2002,
IIRC,the federal government gave/loaned Delta approximately $1billion shortly after 9/11/01. Sad to say that is roughly 6 times Delta’s market capitalization on 9/14/05. The federal government’s winning picks are almost as good as some of my stock picks during this time frame.
Jay
Unfortunitly I don’t think the bankruptcy (Spelling) of Northwest and Delta Airlines isn’t going to increase ridership on Amtrak. Sadly people are most likely going to go with another airline in order to get fast, service in long distance travel. Now, the people might complain enough to were the government will have to give both companies money in order to satisfy the majority of the public’s demand for swift, reliable service over long distances. In this case these two airlines might be allowed to merge in order to get rid of the debts and strainghten themselves out in terms of service. This will sort of be like the PRR and NYC deal. Most likely the two merged airlines will survive and grow unlike PC.
Unfortunitly I don’t think these two Airlines in chapter 11 will effect Amtrak at all in terms of increased profits.
Amtrak is serving Houston from the Texas Eagle through their bus connection at Longview TX. I had a chance to talk with one of the Amtrak engineers who normally works out of the Houston area and he said that the reason that Amtrak has annulled the Sunset at San Antonio rather than continuing it into Houston is the congestion in Houston and the fact that Amtrak has better facilities for servicing and turning the train at San Antonio.
dd
PS - the airline banckrupcy is a Chapter 11 - they continue to operate as normal but they don’t have to pay their long-term creditors until the courts work out a plan. The court may also invalidate pensions and labor contracts.
Allan, I don’t quite understand your question. The real question that would put all of this to rest would be annual passenger miles by mode. The modes being, air, rail, water, bus, private automobile.
I’ll try and do a little poking around on the net to see if I can find the answer. In the meantime, why don’t you put the modes in order from greatest to smallest. The first two could be tricky, then the second two could also be tricky.
I’ll give you a hint, water is dead last. It is also the slowest. The only time water travel makes sense is when it is an extreme shortcut, or there is no road access.
Actually durring the bankruptcy process, the airlines keep flying as if nothing happened. People holding tickets are not affected, nor are schedules. Look at United. It is the creditors who take a beating.
Can’t beat the good old USDoT. Read it and weep. See where Amtrak figures in the big picture? Not even a noticible fraction of a percent. Intercity buses kick Amtrak’s butt.
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2004/html/table_01_37.html
The winner is the car, followed by the plane, then the bus, the train, and the lowly boat.
Americans actually log more miles on motorcycles than Amtrak, by better than a 2 to 1 margine. Even commuter rail beats Amtrak.
I actually thought there was a chance that air miles would be close to car miles, due to the distances. Not even close.
Very true!! One of Amtrak’s most recent stupid equipment acts is the mothballing of all of their Dash 8-40BP locomotives. They retired lots more than 10!! Amtrak used them mostly on the Auto Train because their hardware and pulling capacity was more efficiant. But they could have upgraded them (for some reason they thought they couldn’t) and used them elsewhere. Hey, it wasn’t very long ago that we still saw the P40s out on the long distance trains!! And if you fixed up the rest of the remaining in the series and you would have more than THIRTY locomotives!! And assign the Pepsi-Cans to trains too, BY THEMSELVES!! All Amtrak needs now are 2 engines on their long distance trains. Yet we still see three on the Southwest Chief. WHY! Sometimes it isn’t even 9 cars long!! Amtrak has like, let’s see. 207 P42s, 18 P32AC-DMs, 20 Pepsi Cans (now if they’d just use them), and like 30 or so P40s that they have shoved in a shed somewhere. If Amtrak would just get themselves together and fix up some of these engines we’d have a pretty nice fleet. Oh, and why should the F59s be only in California, or Washington, or North Carolina? We also have some other odball engines that COULD be used all around the system. Do the P32AC-DMs have to be kept in the northeast? NO, they could be brought out into the national system. Amtrak has 18, do they really need that many up there? I think Amtrak has got so stuck-up with their P42s (even though I like them) that they don’t want ANY OTHER engine running their trains, period, except on the NEC and in California and North Carolina. Why, I haven’t seen a different engine pulling any Amtrak train since 1996! NO KIDDING!
Why in the world do we think Amtrak is short on locomotives? They’ve got plenty i
One word…Money!
Allan.
No Allan, the one word is insignificant. That is how Amtrak fits into the national transportation scheme, and it’s funding is proportional to it’s importance.
Don’t get me wrong, I love trains just as much as anyone here on the forum does, but the American people vote with their dollars, and rail travel isn’t what they want. It would only be a bigger waste of money to try to expand Amtrak.
Let’s not forget who owns most the rails that Amtrak uses. To the railroads, Amtrak is like a fly buzzing in their ear, a major annoyance. They would love nothing better than to put it out of “their” misery, so they could concentrate on their real business, which is hauling freight. There is no money in the passenger business. It was on that very notion that Amtrak was formed. 34 years later, and we can’t give up the ghost, though Bush came close this year.
Look for bigger budget problems next year, after the Katrina spending frenzy.
Dale and Bob, unless every single seat and room is booked on every train, the need for more equipment is entirely moot and speculative. For the most part, Amtrak does a pretty good job allocating the resources that it has. I seriously doubt that if a train fills up far enough in advance, they can’t locate an extra car or two to accomadate the extra customers.
Bob-
The P40s are surplus because the express business never materialized.
They need 3 P42s on #3 & 4 to get over Raton - it’s a 3+% grade - steepest of any Amtrak route. The train would stall with 2 units.
Even if they got the P40s in good working order, they have nothing for them to haul, nor the money to run any more trains and routes if they did.
Amtrak is waiting to find out what the gov’t long term stategy is. Should it involve more trains or need more locomotives, its not a big deal to overhaul the P40s. Much cheaper & quicker than buying new. But, no need to do it now and then just have them sit. I costs quite a bit of money to have active locomotive, even if you don’t use it. A stored locomotive does not need FRA inspections.
Most of the F59s belong to the state of California, who wouldn’t like it very much if they went roaming all over the country. They also have very small fuel tanks and would not make it between the current fueling stops on the LD routes.
Amtrak is not a stupid as you may think.
-Don
[quote]
QUOTE: Originally posted by SchemerBob
Very true!! One of Amtrak’s most recent stupid equipment acts is the mothballing of all of their Dash 8-40BP locomotives. They retired lots more than 10!! Amtrak used them mostly on the Auto Train because their hardware and pulling capacity was more efficiant. But they could have upgraded them (for some reason they thought they couldn’t) and used them elsewhere. Hey, it wasn’t very long ago that we still saw the P40s out on the long distance trains!! And if you fixed up the rest of the remaining in the series and you would have more than THIR
Ya your correct there Big boy 4005.
Allan.