Overmod–Link not available or restricted
Not to worry, here’s a quick tutorial on Q-ships, for those who’ve never heard of them. A good sea-story.
There were three versions of the Alco flatnose: FA, PA and DL-500 (World Locomotive). Also, the flatnose was simpler to fabricate than the compound curves of the bulldog nose.
I’m not sure that the PA-1 sound was unimpressive. I’ve never heard a PA-1 or anything else with a 16-244, but I have heard a 12-244 in notch 8, coupled to two units with 12-251s. The 244 was significantly louder and had a distinctive “snarl” like some high performance automobiles. There aren’t many locomotives with 244s still running so I don’t imagine many people have heard them. The four D&H locomotives were fitted with 12-251 engines (just like the ones the 12-244 was drowning out…) so they don’t count.
McCall in his “Early Diesel Daze” describes the sound of 51LAB starting on Raton Pass after stalling on trials when all three units transitioned together. He mentions a distinctive snarl from the 16-244s, which I assume he had heard in person (if not on Raton Pass that day).
For whatever reason (perhaps extra damping from the full water jackets around the cylinders) the 251 has a different sound to the 244.
A 16-251 rated at 3600HP at notch 8 on a load box literally causes the ground to shake and will hurt your ears if unprotected, but I think based on the 12-244s I’ve heard that the 16-244 would not have been unimpressive.
Of course, the 567As in E-7s were impossibly loud. I recall the Peoria Rocket sweeping through Blue Island at speed behind three relatively decrepit looking red Rock Island E-7s. I had been concerned about commuters wandering across the tracks but someone clinically deaf would have known to get out of the way…
The PA-1 might not have been that loud but I think they would have sounded good if in good repair.
Peter
That didn’t happen until they were rebuilt for Adirondack service around 1973. While working the Laurentian and Montreal Limited on D&H’s own account into 1971 three of them had 16-244s the entire time, one had a borrowed 12-244 (from an RS3) for some of the time.
To lose the eybrow from a PA, try a PA3.
I was aware of the D&H operating the PA-1s in original condition but that was more than 46 years ago. My point was that most people discussing the sound of a PA-1 would not have experience dating back that far. I expect that most people who have heard a PA-1 might have heard the four D&H units after refitting with the 12-251s, maybe operating in Mexico or Doyle McCormack’s restored unit.
It is generally agreed now that no PA-3s were ever built.
The locomotives mostly identified as PA-3s were in fact late production PA-2s, and a number of these were built for Southern and I think Missouri Pacific.
Peter
Don’t think I was ever around a operating PA. I was around a number of FA’s that the B&O had as a kid - didn’t really like the sound of them - at idle they always sounded like they stumbling around and ready to die - reving them up to load they sounded better but not much. I have no idea if the B&O FA’s had 244 or 251 prime movers.
The EMD 567 in all its varients sounded like smooth power from idle to the 8th notch. Mostly a function of being two-strokes and having a power stroke every time the piston came to the top of its stroke, versus every other time in four-strokes.
All the FAs and FBs built new for service in the USA had 244 engines.
Only the Canadian FPA-4 and FPB-4 were built with 251 engines although some earlier FAs may have been rebuilt with 251 engines in Canada at least.
As four strokes, the 244 had half the number of power strokes for a given engine speed compared to a 567, for example. Added to this was erratic operation of the Woodward electro-mechanical governor when the oil level was allowed to fall below that recommended, which gave a pulsing variable idle speed. so they rarely sounded smooth except under throttle.
My comments were based on hearing a 244 for the first time in many years on a fast passenger train on the Bethungra Spiral, (like the Tehachapi Loop) so I got to hear it as it passed twice… The sound was sharper, a distinct “snarl” compared to the two 251 engined units with it. If it had had an EMD blower engine unit with it I might not have heard it at all.
&
The Alco PA sound was something I still recall today. It reminds one of the old 426 Hemi built by Chyrsler during the muscle car era. Like the PA engine, it didn’t need a tune up either. For a comparison though, while both seemed like they were about to shut off between each cycle the engine took, only when the throttle/gas pedal was applied did they “come alive,” and there they proved to be the classic engine. Yes, the sound of the PA is the sound of a classic diesel. As for the looks, I’ll take it anyday over the E8/E9’s . . . but then again, it’s the sound of that diesel engine I’ll always remember.
isn"t it all relative to what you get to see these days?. i’ve been watching Del.Lack operate 4-6 old, dirty Alcos for a while. They work and i still look forward to seeing them, especially when they break out a “new” engine, you haven’t seen before. the other day they had a something + Adirondack hooked up. 6 engines pulling about 75 cars.
Personally, I think the PA, as well as the FA are beautiful engines; far better looking than the E series engines. Unfortunately, the only ones I ever saw live were perhaps the best of the best though. The D&H PA’s (all 4) at Whitehall, N.Y. while I was there one day. The blue and silver plated warbonnets were just striking in appearance.
I like the E & F units because of their clean,uncluttered lines - no extra frills or styling tricks.
I like the smoke they put out, some people call them the “steam engine of diesels”. First experience with them was riding A&M
Favorite first generation road switcher based purely on aesthetics: RS11.
Why? I like the little “pinches” at the tops of the hoods.
RS11’s are certainly very muscular-looking, kind of like an RS3 that’s spent a couple of months in the gym.
In my dim and distant high school days, I remember shooting what may be the last pictures of ATSF 51 and 51A in the scrap line at Pielet Bros. in April of 1969.
The passenger locomotive market was a moot point by the late 1950’s. Nobody made a locomotive with fins like a '59 Cadillac.
I actually think the modern-day Suburban XL resembles an Alco PA.
Hold up broadside pictures of the two next to each other.
http://www.museumoftheamericanrailroad.org/collection/restorationprojects/projectalcopa.aspx
http://newcarreleasenews.com/2018-chevrolet-suburban/2018-chevrolet-suburban-exterior-wallpapers/
Now we just need someone to paint one with the Santa Fe Warbonnet.
I don’t think ALCo PA had anything to do with “ugliness”, but two of my favorite early diesel (in terms of aesthetics) in the States are MILW Erie-Built with flute steel sheet around the headlight and M-10005/M-10006 ( City of Denver of 1940)