Amtrak, political realities and the future (PRRIA 2015)

As of February 10th, per TreasuryDirect.gov, total federal debt was $18.1 trillion. The public debt was $13 trillion, and the intergovernmental debt, i.e. debt held by a variety of government agencies, i.e. Social Security, Medicare, etc., was $5.1 trillion.

According to The Financial Report of the U.S. Government for the Fiscal Year2013, which is issued by the U.S. Treasury Department and audited by the GAO, the U.S. had assets of $2,968.3 billion and liabilities of $19,877.6 billion. The debt to asset ratio was 670 per cent.

The median debt to asset ratios for the Class 1s at the end of 2014 was 28.24 per cent.

The public debt was 72 per cent of total debt. A U.S. default on it probably would roll world financial markets. On the other hand, failure to service the intergovernmental debt could be offset by reducing entitlement benefits, i.e. Social Security, Medicare, etc.

Foreign sources held 47 per cent of the public debt as of the end of November 2014 as per the U.S. Treasury’s Major Foreign Holders of Treasury Securities. China held 20.4 per cent and Japan held 20.3 per cent.

At the end of 2014 the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the United States, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, was $17.7 trillion. The public debt was 74 per cent of GDP; the total federal debt was 102 per cent of GDP.

At the end of 2014 state and local

So, you don’t think much of Wick Moorman’s Sandy Creek?

I have no idea what it’s usage was in the past but if it has been in almost continous use as most Amtrak Heritage baggage cars have. I would keep a very watchful eye on it. A sister car Hickory Creek was rehabbed from the Circus Train which IMO is a relatively light user as those trains are not moving every day or several times a day.

Well they still tote a full sized baggage car on a lot of runs so I would presume they need it. I noticed the Texas Eagle does not tote a full length baggage car though.

As for storing checked luggage with passengers. I am not sure in all cases that legally can be done, especially with the recently passed gun carrying law where Amtrak has to carry guns. I think in that legislation it says they have to be physically seperated from the passengers and secured but I am not sure. Also some express shipppers of Amtrak would not want their packages sitting amongst passengers in a rail car.

If it was me I would have done coach baggage combines but again, have no idea what they are carrying in the full length baggage cars today.

Well, the California Zephyr carries checked baggage in the baggage car. When I am in the station in Salt Lake City, I see many passengers checking baggage–some even pay to check more than is carried without charge. And, when a train has come in, I see quite a bit of checked baggage coming off. I have not paid close attention to see if more than checked baggage is handled here. I have even checked a suitcase from New Orleans to Salt Lake CIty–and it traveled on the same trains I traveled on, without a layover in Chicago!

The proposal has some good features. Whether they make it through the legislative meat grinder is problematic.

A business case for procurement, improved accounting transparency, stopping the losses on beverage and food service, and plowing the operating profits of the NEC back in to it are long overdue features.

One of the problems with the previous PRIIA reviews of the long distance trains was the absence independent verification of the benefits, costs, etc. The 2015 Act would fix this problem.

You would have had trouble on the post war IC where a number of their passenger cars weere rebuilds of cars earlier rebuilt by Burnside Shop several times, some dating back quite a ways.

A refreshing dose of reality. 70 new baggage cars and 10 baggage-dormitories are being delivered. So how old are those 73 “too old to be rebuilt baggage cars”? 75 years old means they would have been built in 1940. Really? Not. They were all built between 1948-1956.

So you think rebuilding a 59 year old baggage car is OK. At a certain point most equipment out lives its usefulness and its becomes logical and economical to replace. These new baggage cars are Being built to run at track speed in the NEC.

don oltmann is far more knowledgable than I or you. I recall that he has said in the past that rebuilding should be possible. But my question is why we do need any “baggage” cars? Few railroads elsewhere have used them in years. If we actually need baggage cars to run at higher speeds in the NEC (why?), why not convert some old Amfleet I cars that are in storage?

20th Century Limited.

So, in your opinion, what makes a 75 year old car unsuitable for current, everyday use?

Rebuilding is always possible, most business Renew and improve thier fleets regardless if they are baggage cars, airplanes or rent a cars.

Need for higher speed trucks and detection of hidden frame cracks. Also protecting utilities from higher speed operations. That is to more protected locations. Granted NDT can find some faults but look how difficult it is to test overhauled steam locos.
Also tighting up all joints to eliminate rattles can be expensive. We find that overhaulin aging aircraft is more expensive each time and is out ov service for longer times each overhaul. Parts also a problem.

Extreme example.
A new B-737 can go thru a “C” check in 5 days.
An old B-727 can go thru a “C” check in 90 days.

I would add the following:

  1. Costs of maintenence and replacement of parts no longer produced.

  2. Steel does not last forever in a railroad environment (which was mentioned above). Where are all these rebuilt box cars?

  3. How does bastardizing multiple builds and generations of coaches meet Amtrak’s standardization of spare parts and reducing maintenece costs and training?

  4. Who is to say that Amtrak does not have a plan for the cars and will not use all of them…even before we see them sitting in a storage yard unused? Do we have some inside information on that? Or are folks just guessing.

  5. What is the weight of one of these new baggage cars compared to one of the old muesum relics still running around the system in operation?

  6. What is the top speed capability of one of these new baggage cars compared to the old?

  7. What are the past union complaints about the old baggage cars?

Lots of unanswered questions here before we jump to a conclusion that Amtrak can do it better via the method of recycling older cars.

Just by looking at the new cars I can spot some improvements over the old cars and the rebuilt from old cars:

  1. Lighting in the new cars is far superior and I am sure the Amtrak workers are going to like that feature vs the dimly lit former cars.

  2. Baggage doors are not so large and are broken into two parts. Would be great if opening and closing them was mechanically assisted but even without the assist this is an improvement.

  3. Standardized two baggage doors on each side vs one on the shorty Amtrak baggage cars.

I would guess on the following:

  1. Air Brake system probably a lot more responsive and less leaky than an older rebuilt braking system.

  2. Probably cheaper to build than the other car types given the lack of facilities and perhaps Amtrak made a decision here to build more baggage cars initially to get more car shells produced on the order so that some could be converted in the future when it had more money.

My guess is the improvements in the new cars trucks, lighter weight and access to parts. A company that does not renew its its equipment will not stay competitive.

The older cars are built for the maintenance practices in the 1950s. Building cars today for much easier access and speed as maintenance workers are paid much more. Also access for major overhauls are probably much easier.

They could have used the stainless shells of the 30-year-old Metro North and LIRR MU cars now being retired. Quarter-point doors big eoiugh for baggage use and structurally sound for a packed standing load. More than enough to choose the best in the best structural condition.

  1. Carrying baggage and some express business is a minor portion of Amtrak’s mission, by any estimate. So when you have limited resources why use them for “nice to have” cars that are not part of your core business?

  2. Why does Amtrak really “need” any baggage cars, old, rebuilt or new?

I have yet to hear a good answer to either question.

n.b.: The old baggage cars are not 75 years old. Makes for a more inflamed argument to claim that repeatedly, but it is a false claim.

Any part can be reproduced. If you have a fleet of cars, parts supply can be maintained. This gets to be difficult if you have a small fleet or one-of.

Stainless steel last almost forever. Carbon steel cars can be patched indefinately, but you have to keep up after it. Amtrak is all stainless.

Don’t do multiple builds. Amtrak has five generations of coaches. Amfleet I, Amfleet II, Horizon, Superliner I and Superliner II. “Bastardizing” some Amfleet I or II into combines with one design would be reasonable.

Amtrak says so themselves. The don’t have a plan to deploy new sleepers yet.