I was asked to start a new thread since my posts were off topic to others.
As you know, my favorite train was canceled. Amtrak has canceled other trains as well. With their budget and equipment constraints they probably had to. But considering some of the trains that run now vs. the ones that were canceled, I think Amtrak made mistakes and would have been better off canceling other trains as opposed to others.
Feel free to debate. I just spent a whole hour on a thread and lost it because of a computer problem (either my end or the host end) so I’ll just start this thread and take it from there.
They suggested canceling several routes, mainly using passenger miles per train miles (PM/TM) as the main criteria for which routes to cancel. The preliminary report lists PM/TM for all trains in FY 1977 (Table 3-11) and then highlights some of them when discussing those to ax. The Cardinal’s PM/TM in 1977 was a pathetic 60. The Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star, all who were canceled, had higher PM/TM. If the cuts were based on PM/TM, the Cardinal should have been cut and the Lone Star should still be here (actually the Lone Star should be here and the Inter-American which is actually worse should be gone). The Cardinal actually was cut but brought back because of Senator Byrd. This is fact: http://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/03/business/where-the-budget-cutters-didn-t-want-to-cut.html?pagewanted=1. If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today and i could still take a direct train to Chicago and get there a lot faster than I can on Byrd Crap and people in nearby Lancaster and Harrisburg can get to Chicago without having to change trains in Pittsburgh where the connecting times are lousy and so is the station. The decision on which trains to cancel should be based on merit not based on nepotism.
Comments on Philly Amtrak Fan’s latest attempt to paint himself as a victim of the past:
If time is such a concern for travel between Philadelphia and Chicago, and that the Cardinal is considered so toxic that he cannot set foot on it, I am curious as to why not instead take a Northeast Regional train to Washington, DC and then the Capitol Limited to Chicago and save 6 hours travel time? After all, four days a week, he’d not be burdened with the option of the Cardinal, anyway (and even travel via New York and the Lake Shore Limited would be faster than the Cardinal on the few days it does run).
This statement from Philly Amtrak Fan is precious: “If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today…” This of course is ridiculous. (It’s in reference to the Cardinal’s passenger miles per train mile being less than the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star in 1977.)
The timeline was:
The Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were discontinued in the fall of 1979.
The Cardinal was discontinued in the fall of 1981, and was reinstated as a tri-weekly train in early 1982.
The Broadway Limited was discontinued in 1995, and was replaced by the Three Rivers between New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh (p
In 2015 on the way to California, I rode a regional to the LSL westbound to Chicago and the CL to a regional eastbound. The eastbound CL was almost four hours late into WAS and I missed my connection into WAS after a delayed trip after being on the SWC for two days. Then I had to wait another half hour in a line with my bags to change my ticket. Still think I have no right to be PO’ed? Has it ever happened to you?
Is it? Without the Broadway Limited or Cardinal there would be only the LSL and CL for Chicago-NEC trains. Even though only an idiot would believe Byrd Crap is a reasonable Chicago-NEC train, can you imagine just one Chicago-NEC train?
If one wishes to have a New York to Chicago train on the old Broadway Ltd. route, maybe the Capitol could be re equipped as a single level viewliner train an have a New York section join it at Pittsburgh, a variation of the old B&O. PRIAA suggested something on those lines with through cars. All this presupposes more rolling stock being made available. I agree that the Floridian and the Lone Star should have been retained, but one issue is that some of the lines Amtrak uses are those the freight railroads wish to downgrade. The S line through the Carolinas that the Silver Star uses is one example. This may have been a contributing factor in the Floridian’s demise.
I think that problem is on the Trains server end. I’ve had the same experience in the past (still do) so now I copy my post before I submit it in the event there is a disruption.
As to the theme of your thread, I’ll only say that you and VerMontanan seem to have issues. However, your vulgar term for the Cardinal does not aid your cause. The last time (1986) I rode the Broadway from NYC to CHI it was over 6 hours late, much of that sitting in Ohio and Indiana. It should be resumed, though on a different route.
I agree with schlimm that using a vulgar term for the Cardinal isn’t helpful and comes across as sophomoric.
I rode the Cardinal only once, from Cincinnati to Washington, and I enjoyed it.
Perhaps, however, there’s another side to the question of the efficacy of this train. Namely, that Senator Byrd and his train was a positive sign back in the day that Amtrak was not going to be killed, but supported instead. A different Senator from that state might not have had any interest in Amtrak at all. Instead, Byrd made sure that Amtrak got funding for this train and the system as a whole. Byrd was an Amtrak supporter; any problem with that?
Senator Byrd, like it or not, looked out for his constituents, just as he was supposed to do. If there was pork being passed around, he made sure his state got a big piece of it; he didn’t invent pork and he alone couldn’t end the practice. It wasn’t solely his fault that Amtrak has never been given the money it needs to operate the desired type of national system that always seems to be just out of reach.
We in Ohio would be well served to have a similarly powerful Senator looking out for our Amtrak interests; instead we have no one in our delegation who cares much for trains. As a result our Amtrak service is not exactly ideal.
This railfan has no dog in this fight, but it seems to me that denigrating a respected and effective Senator and especially his effor
This poster has only a suspicion but political decisions made in Congress and the EPA may have caused the cancellations listed.
100 V-1 sleepers were originally scheduled to be purchased. However Congress somehow limited that number to 51.
The locomotive situation was a problem with the SDP-40s not accepted by some RRs and the F-40s came on as a quick fill in. Then not enough P-40 & P-42s were ordered due to lack of funds to replace the F-40s.
The rebuilding of Heritage sleepers and coaches did not include the installation of retention toilets to meet EPA requirements as Amtrak expected to be able to order enough Single level cars.
Of course not enough or any funds to get more SLLD cars was forthcoming.Soon trains got cancelled such as the Floridian.
The result was Amtrak haters got part of their wish to torpedo Amtrak. That was accomplished by cancelling some trains that had better PM/TM ratios than some that were kept.
Now almost all trains have good passenger loads during high and shoulder seasons that are constrained by rolling stock shortages. Until Amtrak can get more rolling stock there will not be more service on present routes, restored routes, or new routes.
We would probably see much lower ridership totals now except for the funds allocated in 2009 for rebuilding Superliners and Amfleet-1s.
Yes, I can imagine a time when there was only one Chicago-East Coast train, as would anyone who knows the history of Amtrak: On Amtrak Day 1971, the Broadway Limited was the sole train departing Chicago for the Eastern Seaboard. There was no Lake Shore Limited in the original route plan and service on what would become the Cardinal was a Chicago-Cincinnati James Whitcomb Riley, and a Cincinnati-Newport News/Washington George Washington. The Broadway Limited originally had a Washington, DC section.
The Broadway Limited was chosen over the ex-NYC route due to better track (at the time) and the ability to combine the Chicago-Washington section with the train as far as Harrisburg (though they sometimes ran in sections). Using the Broadway Limited route also allowed consolidation of facilities between New York and Pittsburgh with the New York-Kansas City National Limited. Some claimed that what would become the Lake Shore Limited should have been the Chicago-New York train all along as ridership was artificially by New York Central service cuts in 1967 and by Penn Central thereafter all along the route (whereas the Broadway Limited retained its name and service). “Amtrak in the Heartland” by Craig Sanders chronicles the myriad things which affected all the routes between Chicago and the East Coast, and is a good read. There are so many variables with track conditions Conrail and subsequent changes when Conrail was split between CSX and NS, it remains truly ridiculous to claim that discontinuing the Cardinal in 1979 could possibly have guaranteed the chance that the Broadway Limited would be around today. And indeed, as was the case with axing the Montrealer (which had other issues, too), lack of usable equipment was an issue.
West Virginia is indeed among America’s poorest states. According to the Census Bureau, in 2015 household income was 77 percent of the national average and 17.9 percent of the population lived in poverty compared to 13.5 percent for the nation as a whole.
How West Virginia’s poor have benefited from the Cardinal or the Capitol Limited, which also serves parts of West Virginia, is unclear. Amtrak employed 41 people in West Virginia in 2016 out of a potential working population of 714,000, i.e. persons over 18 and under 65.
From 2012 to 2016 the Cardinal lost $83.1 million plus depreciation and interest. West Virginians would have been better off if the government had funneled this money, or at least that portion of it attributable to West Virginia, to the state’s colleges and universities to help poor West Virginians get an education, which is the best way out of poverty for most people.
You might not have a problem with a problem with Sen. Byrd favoring West Virginia over other states when it comes to Amtrak routes but I do. Amtrak is (or is supposed to be) a national system. It is supposed to represent national interests, not the interests of West Virginia over the rest of the country. Should it represent Philly over the rest of the country? No. I will say it should represent Philly more than West Virginia because Philly as a city has about the same population as the entire state of West Virginia (for a much shorter distance in train miles) and is a much larger tourist attraction. You want to talk national parks? I’m pretty sure Independence Hall is one too. You want to talk about scenery? You forget about Horseshoe Curve because the only route that uses it now is the Pennsylvanian and no one east of Pittsburgh uses it now. The state of Pennsylvania has about 5 times the population of West Virginia, they should have better service than West Virginia. If the money used to save the Cardinal in 1982 could have been used to save another train instead with a higher PM/TM but the Cardinal got saved instead to satisfy Byrd, that is worse for America and negatively affected Amtrak’s bottom line which means the rest of us are paying more tax dollars for it and have been paying more tax dollars for it the past 35 years. Meanwhile whether it’s the Broadway or Desert Wind or Floridian or some other train, they lost their service. You don’t have a problem with it but I do.
There are other fingerprints of Byrd on Amtrak in the past and today.
Before Amtrak, there used to be a Cincinnati Limited connecting Cincinnati to Columbus-Pittsburgh-Harrisburg-Philadelphia-New York (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html). It used to be attached to the Spirit of St. Louis which Amtrak did operate as the National Limited. Amtrak could have run an extra 124.9 miles between Columbus and Cincinnati and they would have co
I wish we had a direct train to Chicago from PA. Then I remember I probably wouldn’t ride it. Sorry - being crammed in an amtube with that many people makes me shudder.
Not that many years ago, Amtrak ran the “Pennsylvanian” as a Chicago-Philadelphia day train. Admittedly, it was primarily a mail & express run, but it did have a couple of Amcoaches and a snack bar.
Amtrak is a political creation and as long as that is the situation, politicians of all stripes will attempt to exert their influence on it.
PAF: With each subsequent post, you display how incredibly ignorant you are about this topic, and your inability to comprehend the topic at hand.
I do take exception with your telling people what I think. You can and have expressed any maligned opinion you want, but you cannot speak for others. I never said I didn’t have a problem with Senator Byrd’s porkbarrelness, and when you say, “Meanwhile whether it’s the Broadway or Desert Wind or Floridian or some other train, they lost their service. You don’t have a problem with it but I do,” you are insinuating I supported the discontinuance of these trains. When you clearly, and ongoingly I might add, display ignorance of history, I was merely trying to point out the “why.” If I had my way, all of these trains and more would still be part of the core system, even if they had to be modified due to changes in freight infrastructure.
Your “most recent PM/TM figures from the FRA” are provided by Amtrak. Much more updated information is available at the Amtrak website. One snapshot does not give the full picture, but regardless of which train is the worst on the list, if you get rid of it, there will always be a new “worst” that is targeted, and then there will be a drumbeat to again dump the “worst” and so on until eventually there is nothing left; akin to Martin Niemoller’s famed quote ending, “then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me.”
The railroads and Amtrak basically owe their present existance to West Virginia.
Harley O. Staggers - of Staggers Act deregulation fame and Robert Byrd were both West Virginians. Without both of them the railroad industry - both passenger and freight would look very different than it does today.
At their zenith there were 216 F40s in Amtrak’s stable. There were over 250 P40/42s delivered not to mention the P32DCs, P32DMs and F59s. Of all Amtrak’s woes motive power should not be one of them.
Perhaps the Broadway Ltd wasn’t killed by Amtrak but rather died on its own. Oddly the Broadway way Ltd was singled out by Amtrak to be it’s first fully refurbished long distance train. In 1972, the train was refurbished, Inside and out, from the e units to the mountain series observation cars. Newer refurbished Union Pacific sleepers were added as well slumber coaches. At the time she might have been Amtrak’ best long distance train, at least in terms of equipment.
The train received rebuilt heritage equipment again in 1980 as well long distance amfleet cars, all being equpited with hep.
In 1990, the train was rerouted off it’s oringal route on the prr to a b&o route. Either way the train didn’t serve many population centers west of Pittsburg. Even in the final recommendation report, it suggested restructuring the train west of Pittsburg via cleveland. Who killed the Broadway? Probably some bean counter who saw the opportunity to save 24 million dollar. She was bleeding cash.
The train I wish was saved was the Floridian. I rode the train Chicago to Tampa in 1974. It was slow 2 night 3 day train on a poor route. But it was one of the few north south route’s Amtrak carded. Like the Broadway, it route changed because of Penn Central poor trackage. A better route would have made a difference.
Who killed these trains, in reality, a lack of commitment by our politicans. It’s going to be the same thing that evenuatly kills the entire long distance system. Amtrak’s long distance trains can’t survive without long term financial commitment from the American public and the federal government. Without the commitment, the system will die one train at time till it collapses.
It will be 1969 all over again, some body going to ask,. " Who shot the American passenger train"? We already know the answer.
I would suggest the primary reasons LD trains are a failure is they are inconveniently scheduled (1X/day or 3X/week), slow and unreliable as transportation and the most of the public abandoned them as a transportation option long ago. The LD ridership would be even less without a subsidy of ~20 cents per pm.