What would be appropriate (prototypically) and/or powerful enough to be useful helper locomotives for an Athearn Big Boy and Challengers? Would a Consolidated (Spectrum) or Decapod be enough? Trying to add to the roster, spreading out costs while still using small enough locos to “justify” as switchers for now. My budget will limit me to Bachman Spectrums most likely. I won’t be able to get Mountains, Berkshires until later as I need locos that will handle #5 and #4 turnouts (Walthers/dead frog for now) in my industrial areas. My grades should be 2.25% to 2.75%-3% at the most. Thanks!
I could be wrong, but I don’t think Big Boys or Challengers used smaller locos as helpers. Most of the photographs I’ve seen of them over Sherman Hill or through the Wasatch, show Big Boys and Challengers running together if helper service was needed.
Hopefully some UP experts will chime in and let BOTH of us know, LOL!
Tom [:D]
Of all the video’s I have I havereally never seen one with a helper. Prototypically the Big Boy’s would haul the biggest trains up the grades then let the Challengers take over. Now I have seen Big Boys & Challengers double heading. I have also seen Challengers pushing while Turbines were pulling in the front. But I think the purpose of the Big Boys & Challengers were to be used so NO helpers were needed.
I believe the trainmasters would direct any available power, steam or diesel as the case may be, to get the consist over the ruling grade by referring to their tables. I don’t know the UP’s practises, but I would guess something like a 2-10-2, and later on even a FEF would have been used for extra oomph. Towards the end of steam on the UP, FEF’s were pressed into freight service and performed surprisingly well.
But, if they were short only 1500 hp, say, even a big 2-8-0 would have sufficed, or a Mike.
There a couple of ‘concepts’ here that need to be addressed. A ‘helper’ engine(or ‘pusher’) normally would run only over the ruling grade, and then drop off to pick up the next train. ‘Double Headers’ with multiple engines would run together over the entire crew district. At least ‘West of the Mississippi’, there was the ‘Western Railroad’ agreement. Many time a railroad would ‘double head’ a train and this would reduce crew cost. There was no need for extra conductors/brakemen when doing this, only the extra engine and engine crew would be required. The unions got an agreement that any ‘double header’ would be limited to twice the power of the smallest engine in the ‘double header’. Thus, a 2-8-0 and a 4-8-8-4 would be limited to twice the tonnage rating of that 2-8-0 - Not Good! That is why many of the double or triple headers you see in old pictures have identical classes of steam engines on the point.
The 2-8-0 as a ‘helper’ on a ruling grade(helper district) is fine, but using it on an entire crew district run will limit the tonnage allowed by rule if it is teamed up with a larger engine. With the arrival of diesels, a modification to the agreement was made to allow ‘booster’ engines, but not cab equipped engines(unless they were drawbar equipped). Early in WWII, EMD offered to drawbar even 4 unit FT’s if the customer asked. The Fed’s put a stop to the union rules due to the war effort. The ATSF ordered all of their FT’s with couplers and was so concerned that they asked EMD to deliver only boosters for a while - thus all of the ATSF ‘ABBB’ FT sets one sees in WWII pictures.
Jim Bernier
Thanks guys. Great responses already. I realize that in the “real world” in most cases the Big Boys and maybe Challengers would either suffice by themselves (as per their intended design/purpose) and in my modeler’s world I’d double them if I had enough of them and needed to… I just wondered if using a Bachmann Consolidated 2-8-0 or Decapod would do the job on an HO 3% grade until I can afford, Mt.s, Mikes, Bershires, etc. My next $ needs to go towards two smaller locos that can double as yard duty and mainline local passenger/freight engines. I wasn’t thinking about consisting (just helping) but that begs the question as to whether I’d likely be able to speed match a 2-8-0 or Decapod the whole run, with an articulated. Once again, thinking in the model/layout world here… Jim, thanks for the detailed prototypical info. I’m willing to make my usual proto-freelance compromises but wanted to be at lest in the neighborhood of reality in prototype applications. I forgot to mention that I’ll be running relatively short trains, probably 8-10 cars max. so might not even need to double, consist or use helpers at all… I’m steam era only so far too. Thanks. P.S. One additional/unrelated question. Since the forum format change, my paragraph separations aren’t showing up in my posts anymore. Can anyone tell me how to “make this so?”
I have several videos/DVD’s of UP on Sherman Hill with Big Boys, Challengers, etc. I only saw Big Boy’s double-headed with other Big Boys or Challengers with one exception. There was a clip with an EMD F-3 in front of a Big Boy. Very strange looking combination. These videos also showed Challengers and FEF’s double heading, but no combos of Big Boys & FEF’s. Again, this was from videos, not first hand knowledge.
Keith Baker
Capt.Grimek’–
I don’t know whether this helps or not, because it involves SP Cab-Forwards and not UP Big Boys, but during the steam era on the Donner Pass run between Roseville CA and Sparks, NV, 2-8-0’s were often coupled in on front of Cab Forwards at Colfax, CA, at the start of the toughest grade in the Sierra, the 2.4% average up to Emigrant Gap. SP seldom doubleheaded Cab Forwards, due to possibility of track damage from the locomotives, but used other Cab-forwards as mid-train and caboose helpers. On passenger trains like the Overland and the City of San Francisco, 4-8-2’s were generally assigned as helpers between Roseville and Norden. But the only photographs I’ve ever seen of two Cab-forwards running as head-end power were on passenger trains over the Tehachapi’s, and then only very occasionally.
On my own MR, I generally use 2-8-0’s, 2-8-2’s or 4-8-2’s as head-end helpers to my big articulateds, which was fairly common Rio Grande practice. It seems to me that the practice of double-heading articulateds wasn’t used very much out here in the West.
Tom [:)]
I’m very interested in videos about this. Do you have any recommendations.
On the topic. From the videos and photos I’ve seen I’ve never seen a Big boy teamed up with anything but the already mentioned F unit. The video do state that these od lash ups where common at the end of steam. If this is true, I do not know.
But, more importantly. I think double heading BB’s with just 8 cars will look od. The engines will be bigger then the train. Also, I think that using say a 2-8-0 in conjunction with such a large engine it will look more as the BB is pushing the “toy” in front of it or pulling it if it’s behind it. Rather then the small engine actually doing something useful.
As far as I’ve understood as well the most common reason for double heading was for balancing the consist. The UP had more train going one direction so sometimes two BB’s got sent back together.
Magnus
Depends where you are on the UP system and what timeframe you are looking at. During the war years of the 1940’s in Utah a Big Boy would receive a 2-8-2 helper in Ogden for the grade up Weber and Echo Canyons. The helper would be in front of the Big Boy. Before the Big Boy’s arrived with the older Challengers handled the grade with a 2-8-2 pushing on the rear. In the 1940’s you would also see double headed 2-10-2’s in Utah. When you get into the 1950’s in Wyoming you start to see double headed Big Boys but you would also see a Big Boy with a FEF 4-8-4 leading. I think your best bet is to go for a 2-8-2 which you could use as a helper, switcher, and branchline service. Steve Orth did a great article on converting the Athearn 2-8-2 into a UP USRA. Good luck.
Jason
If you look at Model Railroad Planning 2002 on Mike Brock’s Sherman Hill layout you will see a prototype picture of a Big Boy double headed with a FEF 4-8-4.
Jason
Pentrax has several videos on Big Boys & Challengers. I have Big Boys 1 - 2 & 3. They are amazing DVD’s. It shows several Big Boys teamed behind Challengers. Even shows the amazing 4-12-2’s. Check out this video from Pentrax on the Big Boys.
UP had so many options with motive power that just about anything was done at one point or another (if the actual loco was in existence). So if your going Proto Lance, Stack’em and pack’em! That’s what I’m doing. I’ve got just about every vid/dvd out there on BB’s, turbines (one coming in the mail to replace the vhs) and late steam. That being said, “in general”, they would not double head the BB’s. That’s why they built them, one crew, one train, one engine, in a very limited running range. The use of one huge locomotive helped keep the overall cost down. Which, again, is why the Big Boys where replaced by the Big Blows, and later the big Centennials.
All the replies are very interesting as per prototype operation but nobody’s mentioned a factor that, while irrelevant to prototype operation, is fairly important in MRRing and that is speed matching. In DCC you can adjust individual eng speeds but in DC a mismatch in speeds makes for jerky operation
JIm:
Very good and VERY valid point. I’m DC, and believe me, I have to work with the gearing problem very carefully. That’s why my ‘helpers’ are lower-geared locos to match the gearing of my articulateds, which are mainly 2-8-8-2 and 2-8-8-4 wheel arrangements. Thank God for reduction gears on most of my non-articulated locos, otherwise it would be ‘push-me, pull-you’ over my grades. Thankfully, for the most part, my artculateds can surmount my grades without helpers, and when I use them, it’s mainly for ‘show.’
But you make a very good point for we DC modelers–test and test AGAIN! Both with and without loads.
Tom [:)]
Towards the end of steam, both cab and hood units were used as available. Turbines were also used - BTW the turbines were ALWAYS in front of steam locos - smoke, or even worse a cinder or two, would screw-up a turbine royally!!
I’ve only done a little speed matching in DCC, set up a oval test track, which worked really well BTW. But you all in DC that can do it, well, my hats off to ya.