I’ve gotten engaged in a discussion on a Swedish forum about US models. I would like your opinion. My discussion partner suggests that all American locomotives are “toy like”. He focuses on that the American models are not detailed correctly, especially things like the rods on the steam engines.
My idea is that their is a lot of difference between European and American locomotive design which will cause a person that is not familiar with American prototypes to perhaps think they look unreal.
Also, the massive difference between models from different manufacturers makes it hard to draw any general principle. For example, is a Bachmann standard or IHC comparable to the products from BLI/PCM, P2K and so on. So whats you take? Are American models inaccurate and toy like?
It sounds like your aquaintance is discussing steam engines. Here is an important point about steam engines in HO (and I am by far no expert). There were so many variations made by the American locomotive makers that to produce them accurately and with all the details for any given type would be very expensive to make. This is were the brass loco market comes in - brass locomotives more or less replicate most or all the important details. The plastic market has always been a “mass produced” market. To sell plastic loco’s, they need to price them such that they can sell enough quantity to pay for the tooling and manufacture and make a profit. In recent years, techniques have been improved and mass produced loco’s, both steam and diesel, are moving toward replicating more prototypical details while keeping the price relatively modest. For example, Athearn recently offered the SD40T-2 with the correct low nose light, a correct plow and many other specific details. There remain a few more to be added by the buyer, but this is unprecidented. The same goes for the Genesis
Certainly, at least up to very recently, U.S. models were decidedly inferior to the higher-end European examples. Accuracy has been highly variable, particularly with regard to steam locomotives toward the lower end of the pricing scale. Examples of numerous engines, IHC’s and Mantua’s coming immediately to mind, often had no specific prototype, or used bodies from one type of loco placed over wheel arrangements of a totally different class. The almost always “bright” rods and valve gear on virtually all U.S. models have indeed been toy-like and a decided negative when it comes to accurate prototype appearance, a problem only recently begun to be addressed by manufacturers.
While many here rave about the high degree of detail exhibited on the latest U.S. plastic models (apparently most have never seen a quality brass loco close-up), such was already truly common among a number of foreign manufactures’ models as much a 20 years ago. Their plastic models in many instances did rival American brass. The difference was, of course, part and parcel with the prices being charged for them, quality European engines often being priced at several times the U.S. figure for a similar size/wheel arrangement. Quality models demand quality prices. It is a dilemma as old as the hobby itself. Beautiful, custom-built, pre-war HO engines sold for what today would equal many thousands of dollars, at the same time that 99% of hobbyists thought they were doing great and accurately modeling with downright crude Varney and Mantua motive power.
My take on this is that it would depend on which models you’re looking at. Does your discussion partner have access to the more detailed (and more expensive) models or is he pointing out defecencies on the cheaper models. My Bachmann 0-6-0 that I got back in the late 70’s look like a toy compared to the better locos out there as does my Bachmann 4-6-0 Hall Class. On the other hand, my 2-10-2 (made by Mehano) looks very realistic and is very similar to prototype photos I’ve studied as does my Athearn Genesis USRA light pacific.
Speaking purely of steam prototype locomotives, to a person who is only familiar with North American prototypes (which tend to be big, simple and utilitarian,) most ‘not made in USA’ steam looks downright strange - and, yes, “Toylike.”
Then, too, there is the difference between a craftsperson modeler, who wants every nut, bolt and cotter key to be represented, and the operating mogul who is content that the thing at the front of the train looks something like a locomotive as long as it can pull the load and stay on schedule. Note that this isn’t an either/or value judgement. It is simply a recognition that different people allocate their modeling time differently.
In the US modeling press, the difference in approach between MR (large layouts, operation) and RMC (highly detailed rolling stock) underscores this point. Of course, there is some overlap since both are trying to reach a mass market.
Of course, there are some US-prototype models that were, and are, intended to be toys - the most glaring HO example being the Life-Like 0-4-0T Dockside (which dispenses with such niceties as crosshead guides and piston rods and just runs the main rods into the cylinders.) If that is what your friend is looking at, I can’t help agreeing with him.
The models being referred to are mostly BLI/PCM, P2K and other high quality US products. Which he consider toy like, for example the PCM Big boy and Y6b.
His biggest reference is his Trix Big boy and pictures of the above mentioned as well as the general appearance in Model railroader.
I think that Chucks point on that US prototypes look simple and utilitarian is one for the reason. They look big and brutish and their is a lack of fine detail on side rods and driving wheels which are more common in Swedish and I do believe British prototypes.
As someone mentioned, their is a huge difference between a Bachmann Standard model and for example a PCM or MTH engine if you ask me. I personally do not feel that European engines made by Roco for instance, which I have a few of are more detailed. I believe the difference in price more comes from really crappy competition in Europe.
The discussion at hand is about the likes of the P2k and PCM quality if you want a reference. I do not believe that those engines looks like toys but maybe I’m wrong. When I check on reference pictures I think they look quite real.
It might help to have some specific examples. Generalizing is problematic and doesn’t usually give a fair assessment of things. Yes, I realize European engines have for the most part been both more detailed and more expensive. We have examples of cheaper and simple and more detailed and more expensive in the current market. To say that American model engines are more toylike - well, what does that mean? I personally avoid toy like. I don’t model steam era but I’ve seen some pretty nice stuff in the past 5 years.
US locomotive builders also kept things as simple as possible. A US loco may have 10 main parts in a drive rod assembly while a European built loco may have 34. That’s that many more things to go wrong.
Were they now? In the mid-80’s, I bought a ROCO DB class 57 0-10-0 for the equivalent of $65 in 1983. That’s hardly the several multiples you mention. Then there was the Liliput DRG class 18.6 with the attendant “Rheingold” cars that set me back about $150 US for the set around 1985. IIRC, the Fleischmann
It entirely depends on the manufacturer. Where you are from and what models are prevalent in your country.
Marklin would be an excellent example of a high priced, highly detailed European maker, which has for decades produced excellent models. Mehano, from Slovenia is an example of a manufacturer from Europe that makes significantly lower cost and less detailed, perhaps toy-like locomotives. These are of course the locos imported and sold under the IHC brand.
I grew up in the UK with Hornby trains. Based on this experience I would never say that European models are more detailed than US.
Lillen,
So if this guy thinks that US models are toy-like, what does he think Euro models are? When I see a Euro model, it’s usually got giant pizza cutter flanges and not-even-close-to-realistic hook and loop couplers.
If anything, I think it’s the other way around as far as what’s toy-like and what isn’t.
Ah,There lies the trap…While P2K diesels have excellent details they fail in accuracy as far as road specific details,some measurements,shallow side frames and other finer tune points.Are these “toy like” models? No more then any other brand that suffers the finer details-even the Atlas line of locomotives isn’t perfect.
As far BLI/PCM…Some are no better in details then the older Athearn BB and Atlas locomotives and many suffer incorrect details,missing details,incorrect paint ect.Again these are no more “toy like” then any other quality brand.
Then what are “toy like” models? IMHO the old train set Tyco,Bachmann,Model Power,AT&T and other such like brand brands and this will include the older 60 era brass diesels…
Listen…Time was I would have been proud as a peacock to own this engine.
Today I will give it a glance and recall the old days when such was consider a sweet looking engine even tho’ the BB GP7 looked better and ran better.Today the P2K GP9 will blow that old Hallmark GP9 away.
Today’s models “toy like”? Not in a thousand years not even the lowly old “fat body” Athearn BB locomotives are “toy like”.
I think it’s the conditioned eye, if you are used to seeing North American steam all your life, the first time I saw a British steamer I had to laugh, no big domes on top, an open cab, a round window, and a “toot-toot” whistle, then to see an Austrian loco that was even more odd, so I think this in reverse to a European eye must be the answer to toylike, It would be a great comparitive test to find a great N/A engine and a super European loco and just compare, not on looks but quality,scale, prototype etc etc and see who would win. I actually took a look at some of those HO German steamers and was very impressed, but also impressed with those big Great Northern Monsters too.
Once you grow used to them, another country’s locomotives can become quite appealing to the eye. It also helps to see them in person rather than just through photos. To American eyes, a Golsdorf compound Adriatic (2-6-4 http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/at/steam/310-16/310_23_XTDN.jpg ) looks quite strange. Once seen (and heard), the strangeness starts to disappear. It’s still not what I would call a really esthetically pleasing loco. Czech 498 class 4-8-2’s are a whale of a lot prettier. http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/cz/steam/498/498106.jpg
Except for the models made for the toy market, I’ve usually found European prototype models (such as brightly colored locomotives, two-axle goods cars, etc.) to look more toylike than U.S. prototype models (such as hulking, black locomotives, multiplicity of freight-car lettering, etc.). Regardless, comparing the specific prototype to the specific model should be the basis whether a model is toylike or not.
Mark
PS - That bright green 0-4-0 tank engine on display in Reykjavik sure is toylike, I mean cute (delightfully pretty or dainty)! Same for the little two-axle diesel shunters I’ve seen in German and Swiss freight yards. Yeah, overall, European prototypes are more cute than American prototypes these days…
I enjoy reading these sorts of threads particularly, when they bring in thoughts and opinions that add a global perspective. My first impression when I began traveling on business in Europe was that the prototype steam engines and freight trains were very strange in appearance and that they themselves were toy like. The models in the hobby shops however, were generally well detailed and attractive. After getting over my railway culture shock, my opinion now is that that the choice of models and quality throughout the 31 countries that I have traveled to is a mixed bag and like everything in life it is all relative to the eye and the experience of the beholder. With regard to the prototype, it would be interesting to purists everywhere to compare the rivets and running gear on an SP-AC-12 to a Garratt. Below are pictures of narrow gauge in Ireland, A blue steam loco in Poland and a “Critter” in Arles France.
And now I realize why I never had the least amount of heartburn about the appearance of Japanese steam! Like Ford’s Model T, they came in any color you liked - as long as you liked black. Black black! No graphited smokeboxes or running board stripes (although the latter appeared on preserved locos - along with polished brass tubes to the air-controlled sander valves.) The only exception was clean, wiped metal rods, and the brass loco number plates.
About a decade ago, a heritage railroad (operating museum) painted a C11 class 2-6-4T red, and gave it other details to match a popular kiddie-cartoon character (SL-Man.) The purists went ballistic!
Do Japanese locomotives look toylike? Not to me, they don’t.
