During my four long summers in Germany in the 1990s I watched and examined trains at every oportunity. From what I recall they all used a hook and eye coupler system which makes it difficult to model with an automatic coupler. It dosnt seem possibe to make an HO version of that so unless Europe adopts a US knuckle coupler system, I dont see how things will ever change or ever catch up.
Not quite Jim.David asked a valid question since he saw how well those bad X2F couplers works and that goes against the things he has heard and read about the X2F.
For me its a question about old school modeling and not so much about throwing a cat among the pigeons.
Larry. This is a topic you and I, and probably quite a few a others, will have to agree to disgree on. Regarding horn hooks, you are among a small number of voices crying in the wilderness. Yes horn hooks are really that bad. The industry appears to verify since they dropped them like a hot potato as soon as the KD patent expired. That speaks volumes.
With all this talk of couplers, I’m really surprised…no one mentioned the Mantua couplers…rather unsightly looking, but they actually worked fairly well. Had a lot of those, before I even had horn-hook…Must be an age thing Huh! They even have some for sale on e-bay…LOL.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/302046682918?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true
Take Care! [:D]
Frank
Jim,Old heads like me knows and understands how well they worked and how bad they worked will depend on one’s lack of knowledge on how to make those couplers work.
Sorry Jim,a lot of you young folks would have not made it in the 50/60s since one had to have a degree in tinkering just to get the best out of what we had. Even a Athearn car kit took more TLC to build then a Roundhouse car kit and there laid one of the traps for the X2F or KD coupler.
And by the way,Walthers still sells the X2F.
[:)]It’s Kadee for me .
It´s really hard to believe that with all those really advanced rail technology available in Europe, the railroads could not agree upon a common automatic coupling system in over 150 years! We are still on the same old screw/link coupling established in the 1850´s!
A long, long time ago in MR, a letter to the editor said something like this too. His point was that a lot of the X2F couplers in train sets were poorly cast, which caused a lot of problems. The best examples of the horn hook from higher quality equipment were unceremoniously tossed in the trash in favor of Kadees. While I’m sure this and your point about proper mounting are true, the X2F is still best suited for continuous running, and not “real” operation.
Horn hooks are fine, as are plastic wheels, btw. They both work just fine for many realistically operating layouts.
Realism? Anything sharper than a 60 inch radius curve in HO scale looks unrealistic to me anyway, so everybody has their tolerance for compromise. I don’t look at couplers when running trains either, even when switching.
But I think the key for smooth operations for normal-length cars is to have body mounted couplers.
He has perfected his x2f’s to work for him. Number one they are all body mounted.
I saw on his layout making reverse moves and dropping off cars at industries around his layout without one derailment.
Although I used x2f’s back in the 60’s and 70’s, when KD’s came out I changed and never looked back.
One last word on this gentleman’s layout, it is truly a scale layout with great scenery, detailed structures, hand laid track and switches and an operation scheme that keeps 3 guys busy. All I can say is that he must really like X2f’s!
I’m glad I got the chance to see this wonderful layout and watch it perform flawlessly.
Thats one way of putting it. But when you look at the totality our own experience plus the universality of the opinions posted, it’s hard to wrap my head around there being a defense for horn hook couplers. It’s kind of mind boggling, but as the old saying goes, it taks all kinds. I guess “underdogs” have their fans, but the first thing I noticed about HO trains when I began looking at them around the age of 10 or so was that the couplers looked totally unrealistic. Later, when I saw Kadee couplers, I thought, now that looks tons better! I don’t know, it’s kind of a “no brainer” to me, you know, realism being kind of the goal of model railroading etc. [tup] Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth. To each his own.
There were alot of couplers before Kadee #5 including Kadee ramp couplers. The real trouble with hornhooks is uncoupling and needing a ramp for hands off.
Ed and Dr. Wayne:
Prototype Sharks couldn’t normally be run elephant style because they didn’t have nose MU capability. (I don’t know whether any prototype owner retrofitted them after purchase). I do recall seeing four PRR Shark A units pulling a train through Akron, Ohio in the 1960’s. They were configured as two A-A sets, and required two engine crews! A diesel double-header!
In this day and age, I cannot imagine any justification for producing models with direction-specific couplers. If the manufacturer doesn’t want to provide operating knuckle couplers, then they ought to provide non-operating knuckle couplers that will mate equally well with Kadees (or equivalent) or each other. The seemingly bogus solution on those Sharks required two separate, different pieces. The dummy coupler solution would be simpler because it would require two identical ones. What am I missing here?
Tom
Its fun to read other forums too. There is a small but vocal crowd that constantly points out flaws with the accuracy of a manufacturers models. Its a hoot to read, because they seem to take the position of expert judge on the competency of a manufacturer but ignore some basic goals most modelers care about. Does it run.
Example: I bought one of those highly detailed RTR Exactrail boxcars and noticed that the underbody was so over populated with details that it kept the truck from turning sharp enough to negotiate even a 30 inch radius curve. I had to remove the underbody detail just to get the thing to run. I don’t see a defense for paying upwards of $30 for a model that was designed with a flaw that Tyco solved decades ago. But I’m sure it photographed well as it sat on display.
What’s my point? Even couplers are getting so protoypically sized that they don’t
LOL! Only newbies used those stupid ramps that didn’t work half the time or broke anyway.
Serious operators used small flat tip screwdrivers-these came with those el cheapo small screwdriver sets that was found in five and dime stores. Today you can find them at Family Dollar,Dollar General and other like stores for around $2.00-Dollar Tree has 'em for $1.00.
If you wanted to get all uptown fancy then you bought a small flat screwdriver with a pocket clip. It’s true a lot of us wore pocket protectors so we wouldn’t put a hole in our shirt pocket or skin.
These flat tip screwdrivers works equally well with KDs.
Ah, yes, the great HO coupler discussion.
When I started in HO there were a dozen different scale-size dummy couplers, all of which required filing beyond flash removal just to get them to couple - and even more if using several different brands. Of course, back then a set of needle files was considered a basic tool.
There were also Mantua’s basketball hoops, the Ulrich proto-action knuckle coupler, and the Baker cross between a tin box and a logger’s Peavy. (All further comment deleted.)
Then the Edwards brothers presented us with the Kadee K coupler - the one with the vertical trip pin sticking down from the corner of the knuckle.
In a valiant attempt to create order amidst the chaos, the NMRA set up a coupler design team, which eventually gave birth to the X2F, the much-maligned horn hook. When compared to Mantua and Baker, it didn’t look TOO horrible, and, when properly made and finished smooth it operated about as well as the Kadee K.
So the toy train makers adopted it, as did most of the kit purveyors. Unfortunately, each installed them (or provided them) rough - to people who didn’t all have needle files. And people discovered that getting them uncoupled by lifting them wasn’t as easy as lifting scale dummies. The NMRA decided to distance themselves from the ‘NMRA coupler,’ with good reason.
In the meantime, those devious Edwards brothers brought out the magnetic, and then magnetic-delay Kadee couplers - and then set out to customize them for every HO locomotive and car in the known universe. The result is history.
As for how well properly adjusted X2Fs could operate, Ed Ravenscroft used them until his death - on a layout that included an automated hump yard. (He also told me that not one manufacturer had ever hit the NMRA dimensions spot-on.)
So, how about me? Kadees (including some really ancient Ks) all the way on the JNR and TTT, which run on 16.5mm gauge.
The way it looks is you are making a “straw man” to knock down and the argument has little credibility. Modelers who use Kadee’s know from years experience that they are the best thing on the market for many years for HO couplers. Give it up man! There is no contest. Of course if someone wants to use horn hooks, thats their choice. But the topic title was “are horn hook couplers that bad” so I gave my opinion. I can’t really add anymore so cheers /nuff said.
[quote user=“riogrande5761”]
Doughless
Its fun to read other forums too. There is a small but vocal crowd that constantly points out flaws with the accuracy of a manufacturers models. Its a hoot to read, because they seem to take the position of expert judge on the competency of a manufacturer but ignore some basic goals most modelers care about. Does it run.
Example: I bought one of those highly detailed RTR Exactrail boxcars and noticed that the underbody was so over populated with details that it kept the truck from turning sharp enough to negotiate even a 30 inch radius curve. I had to remove the underbody detail just to get the thing to run. I don’t see a defense for paying upwards of $30 for a model that was designed with a flaw that Tyco solved decades ago. But I’m sure it photographed well as it sat on display.
Nice try, but this topic is about horn hook couplers. The gripe above is something else which I don’t really care about.
What’s my point? Even couplers are getting so protoypically sized that they don’t operate very well.
If the guy likes his horn hooks, that’s enough defense for me.
And my lesson learned: Prototypical accuracy can really ruin a good model railroad.
The way it looks is you are making a “straw man” to knock down and the argument has little credibility. Modelers who use Kadee’s know from years experience that they are the best thing on the market for many years for HO couplers. Give it up man!
To each his own. Square wheels are good too.
RR
Yes,they work but,the cars bounce going down the track.[:-^]