I’m starting to plan an around the walls layout in HO. I have (at least) two questions. I’m planning a dual track layout - because I like to run trains as well as operate and switch sidings. Is 2 feet wide enough for the shelves in general? I have some places planed where the width could be 36" but most of it is 24". Wide enough? Second, how do you handle the duck-under? Should it be a lift out section or permanent? How high? Thanks in advance for your comments. Abbie
With the widest sections you describe, you will have either extremely tight curves (warning bells and lights are going) or your tracks will have to be very close to the edges of your benchwork on those curves (again, warning lights and bells).
Your centre portions are fine, if a tad narrow for my own tastes, but certainly well within “normal” limits. It is at the far ends, where you will want to turn to come back down the shelves, that you have set a distinct problem for yourself. It may not end up being the outer curve so much, but the inner, with the clearance set properly for those tight curves, that will leave you radii near 15", maybe worse.
So, my suggestion is to set it up so that your inner curves are no less than 22" (otherwise it will appear toy-like and limit what you can run, especially if you want to run sizeable steamers). Your outer can be 24". If you are running short truck diesels, then I would go 22" outer and 18" inner. Either way, you should have a minimum of 3" of layout surface oustide of the curve for a net-zone to catch derailed items…like expensive locomotives and passenger cars.
2ft is generally a comfortable width for shelves - but it really depends on you. How high do you want the layout? How far can you reach without knocking anything over in the front? Are you willing to use a step stool (getting up and down one constantly to get a tool or part can get old) to extend your reach? Generally accepted maximum is 30 inches, but shorter folks with shorter arms and a high layout can’t reach that far. A tall man and a low layout (less than 40") can often get away with a 36" reach.
Again, your decision. As we age, duck unders tend to become less and less acceptable. For some, back and other problems preclude ducking under - it happened to my dad after 10 years of layout construction, and he had about 10 more to go to get to a reasonably finished state. But he just couldn’t get underneath anymore to wire or install switch machines, and quickly gave up on everything that wasn’t reachable from the outside aisle. That lasted about 3 years, and then he sold the house and tore down the layout. If you are going to have a duck under, the higher and narrower, the better.
Movable pieces can:
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lift out. Simplest to build, but you need a place to set it when you lift it out.
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swing up. Have to watch ceiling clearances and have to have a way to hold the section in the raised position. Hinge pins must be higher than rail height to avoid binding issues. Scenery clearance must be watched around the hinged joint. Vertical stop in lowered position can be fixed in place.
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swing down. Easy to dislodge, bump, snag, etc
Since you’re asking about a duckunder or lift-out, I’ll assume that the overall layout shape is some sort of loop. If that’s the case, then yes, 24 inches wide is fine. Beveling the corners, or better yet coving them with a curved backdrop will make them look much better so you may want to consider that as well.
Although you may be able to go to 36 inches wide in spots, that might be too wide unless you have access from both sides. Remember, if you have to reach over too much to get to the back part of the layout you risk wiping out the front.
Also, a duckunder by definition is permanent. That is, you have to duck under the layout instead of removing a section. My layout has a duckunder (two, actually), but it’s 48 inches off the floor so it’s not too bad. I think which way you go has to be based on the layout design. For example, on my layout, both spots where a duckunder makes sense from other standpoints (basement access, etc) have scenery and/or trackwork that would make a lift-out or hinged section a real nightmare. My suggestion would be to get an idea of your “givens and druthers” (to quote John Armstrong) and what your track plan will be like, then see what opportunities it affords for your preferred method of access.
HTH,
Steve
I have an arround the walls basement layout. My modular benchwork is between 12" and 24" wide with the standard being 18". I do not have problems with a duckunder because the basement stairs are in the center of the basement. I would recommend you not place track more than 30" from the edge or you will have access problems.
JIM
I prefer 30 inch deep shelves, but 24 inches is fine for most scenes.
I use a duck-under to access the layout interior. This duck-under is 48 inches off the floor, and 6 inches wide (the width of the double track main it carries). I also added padding to the underside (to protect my head) and guard rails to the sides (to protect my rolling stock).
Nick
My layout is mostly 24" wide but one station goes up to 30" and another bit narrows down to about 8".
I added a continuous run track on a removable section becuse it goes past both the stairs and the door to the laundry/furnace room. It’s usually a duckunder but can be removed in less than 5 minutes. (It’s fun watching people duck when the section isn’t there.)
My layout comes up to my underarm and that’s really too high for the width for maintenance.
If you can cheat on the width at corners – add a wedge onto the corner – you can get a larger radius in. A large radius doesn’t come too much farther into the room than a tight one, and is much more satisfying. You may feel the need to start it from the back of the shelf.
I’m 6’5" and have difficulty reaching into a 36" wide layout set at 48". I’d suggest you stand in front of the wall at and put your arm straight out until you can put your palm against the wall. Then measure how much clearance you need from the wall to your body when you are standing vertical not leaning and don’t make you layout any wider. there is also no rule your layout nees to be a certain width for the entire layout. You could make the towns wider than the tracks between them so you can get, “up close and personal” with your trains.
Did we mention that the problems with high, deep layouts are banging into cars on the near tracks when reaching over them? And snagging anything nearby with the sleeve of your shirt.
Ignore Selector’s comments about radius. With the around the walls layout, the radius has little to do with the aisle width (although the corner width will need to be wider than the shelves if they are very narrow. Radius on around the walls layout is more dependent on length of the shelves. You should probably use 24" to 48" radius (wider the better), depending on your lengths.
Mark Pierce
With respect, Mark, I don’t recall mentioning radius in relation to aisle width. I stated that the width of the benchwork will determine the minimum radius. Since the corners are part of the benchwork, unless the benchwork is wide enough for decent curve radii, he will limit his ability. I stand by my assertion.
Hi Selector,
It is possible to fit a 60" radius curve on two 2-foot wide shelves placed at right angles. Of course, the track doesn’t become parallel to the peninsula edges until 6.5 feet from the shelve ends. That’s why one wouldn’t want extra-super wide radii unless one has very long shelfs. But in a bedroom-sized, around-the-wall layout, 24 and up to 30 inch radius curves can be used without major compromises on track location and arrangements…
Sorry for my reference to aisle widths. I meant shelf/benchwork widths… Another senior moment.
Mark
Wide radius curves on an around the wall layout really aren’t a problem except where you have a return loop. Here you will need a 4.5 ft depth (26’ radius) or 6 foot if you want to go up to 34" radius curves. These return loops would be the ideal place to use a swing-down or removable section. The large radius would permit unlimited rolling stock or locomotive operation while siting the needed extra width on a swing down or removable section would allow access to an otherwise inaccessable part of the layout should ducking under becomes a pain in delicate parts of the anatomy.
Great questions on the typical considerations for an around wall layout Abbie. I might actually be able to answer your questions with some authority since I am currently building a similar around the walls benchwork layout plan. (see my URL link below my signature in this post for information on my current layout)
Q: Is 2 feet wide enough for the shelves in general?
A: Yes and no. It depends on the dimensions and shape of the room you are planning to have the layout built. What are the dimensions of your train room? And do you plan to cover all walls of the room with the layout plan?
Q: Wide enough?
A: Anything over 30" width is a far stretch when attempting to reach the back portions of benchwork or layout scenery, track laying, etc… Unless you have an access hatch to reach sections of the layout beyond 36" you are really stretching it past that measurement for width.
Q: How do you handle the duck under?
A: Again, there are many options for duck unders. Typically either a lift out section or a swinging section is built for areas where you would need passing access for operators. Some people use a shorted for cut off office chair with wheels to slide below duck unders, but if you can avoid them it is highly recommended. But, as you will see in my layout plan it was unavoidable, I have two such sections. One is going to be a lift up section on the lower level, and the other on the upper level is going to be about 53 inches from the floor so just a slight tilt of the head will get us clear. Th
Hey Abbie,
Take a look in the current (Oct 06) issue of MR and you’ll find my layout. It starts on page 78. It’s not only around the walls on a 24" shelf, it’s twice around the walls with a 54" duckunder. I’m a spry 62, but when I got old folks who wanted to get into the layout, I put them in a wheeled swivel chair and wizzed them under. In only one place did the radius run down to 28"; the rest was minimum 30". Any more questions, just ask. Bernie
My current plan is designed to end up as an “around-the-walls” plan, although it currently only goes around one wall. It’s fairly easy to get broad curves on a shelf layout, even at 18-24" depth. With 24" deep shelves, you can use radii of up to 40" with little problem. A return loop is thicker, but if you’re going for a realistic approach you might consider a wye as part of a “peninsula” into the center of the room to turn your trains–wyes are much more common than balloon tracks on prototype railroads.
I do admit that my situation allows for sharper curves than most: the biggest motive power I use is a GP-9, and 40-50 feet is max length for rolling stock, so my curves will generally be in the 12"-18" range (in HO.) Most of my shelves are only 12" deep–I really don’t like reaching over things.
I have been told that in the long run you’re probably better off with a lift-out or a horizontal swinging gate: you may be limber enough to manage a duckunder now, but at some point your back (or your head!) will remind you that it wasn’t such a good idea. Easier to plan for it in advance than to install it later.
Hey Bernie,
First of all I just want to say what a great job you have done with the New York, Kittatinny & Western layout!
[tup] [tup] [tup] [tup]
Your layout article has inspired me to tackle a similar design I have with my around the walls layout construction.
[bow] [bow] [bow] [bow]
Specifically I am looking at various bridge / viaduct construction techniques, and I really like the Minisink Viaduct shown on page 82 of your article. That design would fit perfectly on one section of my layout which is in the early stages of construction.
Can you tell me what materials and procedures you used in building the viaduct on your NYK&W?
Thanks,
Ryan
If your not already fully vested in “HO”, have you thought of “N”. I have an around the walls 24" deep, double main with “N”. It dogbones out to 33" on each end for turnaround, plenty of room to model. Just a thought. Also before I started I thought “N” was ridiculusly small, but I’ve really grown to like it, I don’t see it as a big compromise. Dave in PA
Good grief,
One year later, I find the time to send a reply. Sure, 24 inches is deep enough to do lots of things, including two levels of scenery. As for the duck under, I didn’t make anything movable except the door to the room, and it was louvered to allow air flow. Door height 50". A yellow stripe was tapled on the deck so folks would know when it was safe to stand up and I did use a wheeled desk chair to scoot some older folks in and out. I sail, that means boat maintenance, I’m into the fourth year of a new house and garden, and a bunch of other stuff. More to do in retirement than before. And this year I finished a craft room for my wife and bathroom in the basement; I’m framing and drywalling and running lighting circuits in the new basement now.
Good luck,
Bernie
I have 24-inch wide sections on my sectional layout and built special corner sections to allow for my broader curves. You can see pics of the construction at http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html .