10" long, so the scale size is around 70’. That seems wrong.
Wondering if there are better trucks around to retro fit these.
Body mounting coupler boxes seems a good idea. Existing trucks include the couplers.
We don’t need these to run around 18" radius curves any longer.
How? Why?
An example I brought up in another thread, the L&N, had several passenger cars in that length range.
For example; airc onditioned coaches 2394 to 2399, interior length 60ft 4in, seated 74 passengers & air conditioned coaches with middle smoking room, 2097 to 2099, interior length 60ft 4in, seated 62 passengers.
Online source, http://www.lnrr.org/pdf/equipment-registers-rosters/LN-FreightPassengerWorkEquip-1958-01-01.pdf
True, most modern passenger cars of most US railroads were in the 80ft long range.
True, those Athearn designs date from maybe half a century ago and were indeed designed with “selective compression” suitable for typical curves on typical layouts of the era.
But 70 feet for the length of a US passenger car is not a “Wrong” length; it merely is not the most common length.
I put body-mounted couplers on the majority of my Athearn passenger cars, but most of them might not look like Athearn cars otherwise.
This one was originally an Athearn coach, I think, but with wood siding (styrene) and better underbody details (including the underslung tanks for Pintsch gas for lighting) is a pretty close example of the prototype…
…while this one was an Athearn Pullman, but is now an express baggage car for my freelanced Grand Valley…
Another Athearn coach, converted to a wood-sided express car…
…it’s shown demonstrating its rolling qualities on a 2.8% grade, and due to the trucks being the older cast metal ones, it is not moving…I think it looks pretty good otherwise, though.
An Athearn steel RPO, with about 10’ removed from the baggage section. It needs new underbody details, plus grabirons and sill steps, along with some bars for the windows, and some paint and lettering. I’ve also moved the trucks a bit closer to the car’s ends…
This one’s another Athearn baggage car, made from the ends of two other Athearn baggage cars…
This is an Athearn observation car, but I’ve shortened it into a private car for railroad execs…
The Athearn line of BB passenger cars (heavyweight & streamline) were available starting in the early '60s, and are still available on Ebay, etc. today.
For those of us using sectional track or otherwise having tight curves, and of course for those of us with a shallow wallet, these cars were a godsend!
I had a consist of ATSF heavyweights behind a Rivorossi 4-6-4 and it was pretty neat and realistic (back then especially). I also had a string of ATSF passenger cars behind an Athearn PA/B set too. Later I added diaphrams and KDs when I could afford it.
I believe my situation of 55-60 years ago still applies to a lot of MRs who have no space for wide curves, and no money to buy the “more realistic” expensive cars.
My point is, ya gotta appreciate these cars as they helped / help a lot of MRs have passenger trains who otherwise could not afford them or run them on their layout.
The Athearn 70’/72’ passenger cars, along with a few from Con Cor, fit just right on my RR.
The long 80’/90’ cars just dont look right. My main line radius is 24".
Mike.
72.5’ to be exact. Until the 1950s, those were still a typical length.
I still have two sets of seven ATSF passenger cars of that length on my layout.
Incidentally, the Athearn BB observation car came without a rear coupler, creating a dilemma for switchers to pull a head end consist to the coach yard. So, on my two Athearn BB observation cars, I cut out an opening and installed a rear coupler on each.
I also at one time had some Rivarossi heavyweight passenger cars which measured 8.25", the equivalent of a 60’ prototype passenger car. That length too was common from the 1920s to 1940s.
Most of my passenger fleet is the more modern streamliner which measures 11.375", the equivalent of an 82.5’ prototype passenger car. These cars are from Walthers and Rapido.
Lest I ignore them, I have one set of IHC heavyweight passenger cars which measure 11", the equivalent of an 79.75’ prototype passenger car.
All of these measurements are from end to end, not including the diaphragms or couplers.
Rich
Most of my passenger fleet is Athearn. Yes they are selectively compressed freelanced cars. BUT, depending on the type of car, there are prototype examples of similar cars with similar lengths. More on that in a bit.
I add some details, body mount the couplers, add working diaphragms and close couple them.
These pictures show what I do with diaphragms and couplers:
The Athearn streamlined cars actually go back to the early 50’s. The heavyweights came later, in the fall of 1960. Both lines were expanded in the 70’s to add diners and full baggage cars.
Athearn first introduced the plastic F7 and the streamlined passenger cars under the globe name but quickly dropped the Globe name once the product was a success. Note the Globe box and the Athearn instructions in the photo above.
Historical facts about passenger car lengths, in no particular order, but by type.
Heavyweight steel cars starting in the early 20th century:
Baggage cars,
Not a good picture, but hopefully you get the idea of the close coupling and graceful, realistic look of this nine car train of ConCor 72" streamliners go into a 36" radius curve.
Sheldon
A strange yet interesting thread.
To say We don’t need these to run around 18" radius curves any longer. what if that is only the space we have available?
To me there are two schools of thought on M R.
There is Rule 1. If my grandchildren want to run scale size 100ft long battle space items around 16ins radius curves. One does not argue.
Then there are those modeling in a certain timeframe and area. Anything after that timeframe is a no-no. Those people find out why the railroad was built in the first place and run the correct carriages and trucks etc. to the timeframe. Perhaps then only smaller carriages etc and tight curves was used. I have that challenge on my layout. In real life when the line built from Leeds to Wetherby was severe curves. Thus being a case to close the line as vehicles got longer.
David
No argument there and by the same token, an 80’ passenger car is going to look best on a minimum 40" radius curve. 2:1 is a good ratio. For every prototype foot, a minimum 1/2 HO scale foot will make an HO passenger car look best rounding curves.
Actually, that is a shortcoming of HO scale. Space does not always allow the proper radius curves for the equipment involved. An N scale layout will do better justice to scale model passenger cars. Conversely, S scale and, worse, O scale will likely result in a more toy like appearance as passenger cars go around tighther curves.
Rich
We understand, this is a hobby of choices and compromises.
Speaking about the prototype, here in North America, by 1910 or so all major railroads had been rebuilt to handle passenger cars of 80’, cars of that length started to become common.
As Pullman developed their line of steel heavyweight cars, they basically built all sleepers, lounges, diners and observations on the same 80’ frame unless a railroad required otherwise.
Other types of cars were build at various lengths, by Pullman and other builders.
As explained above, 20th century North American passenger cars came in lots of different lengths, but 60’ to 85’ was the typical range.
About our models - physics is physic
This is a slightly tricky situation for me. The cars form part of the remains of my son in law’s model railroad. He had a partially built, but complete from a track perspective, proper model railroad layout given to him when he was a kid. He spent his own money acquiring a brand new Proto 2000 SW1200 (AT&SF) which still runs perfectly despite a few off layout excursions when he was young. He bought or had given to him an Athearn GP 35 (38 maybe? No box for that one) in Southern Pacific grey and orange colours which is also a great runner, probably a BB, although the drive looks more modern than my 70’s era BB F7.
The Santa Fe three coach consist is all that’s left of whatever passenger train he had. It’s a little “weathered” in that teenage enthusiast way I.e not painted or stained, just quite beat up from constant use.
I’d like to gently refurbish these as a surprise for my son in law without altering them too much, whatever too much might be. We have to move the new layout so it’s out of action for a month or more. He’s been running trains daily during the winter. It’d be nice to re-open the layout in the new house with a special inaugural train of old stuff we have. I finally decorated my BB F7 and it can haul an anomalous consist for this purpose. It’s our railroad and has no set era. Just btw, the original layout my son in law enjoyed as a kid did not survive the move he had to make when he was a teenager so this is kind of an important plan of mine. Get the Kleenex box out now if you wish.
We’ve already converted one truck to an EZ Mate II coupler so as to permit it to act as a transition car to the horn and hook remaining cars. I’ve a mind to just finish that conversion of the three car consist. Before I do I need to decide whether to body mount the couplers and just cut off the coupler tangs from the existing trucks or preserve the trucks as part of the history of these cars and fit new trucks for running purp
Athearn’s passenger cars should be considered in context to what else was being offered in the 1950s. There were full length “standard” cars from Walthers (kits) in O and HO, and in O scale Walthers also offered shortened 60’ versions, perhaps primarily for those who were Lionel O scalers. There were also some 60’ standard shorties in HO from English and Penn Line and Varney and perhaps others I’ve forgotten. There are prototypes for those as well, at least for coach and combine (C&NW), and baggage or RPO. Shorty 60’ streamlined cars by contrast had no prototype except baggage or RPO. Herkimer offered its all metal streamlined cars in full scale length and 60’. Tenshodo offered its brass passenger cars only in 60’ if I recall correctly.
But if you had the full length Walthers HO cars, unless you left off key details and had extra long couplers, you were looking at a minimum radius that was not consistent with train set track.
The compromise 73’ length that Athearn offered was probably pushing the length about as far as it could and still run on 18" radius track (and thus could be offered in a train set).
And speaking of context, also remember that the 1950s also saw quite a bit of use of 15" radius sectional track, which was usable perhaps because most of the prototype diesels being modeled were 4 axle.
Looked at from various angles it was and is impressive how plausible the Athearn length looks so long as a full length car is not nearby to spoil the illusion. It is not jarring to look at as 60’ cars are. They did a more than decent job at selective compression and ditto for their streamlined cars and RDC. The one Athearn car that does not seem so plausible is the diner, at least to my eyes, but that is due to the windows.
Dave Nelson
Mike,
For your purposes I would leave the truck mounted couplers, they work fine, especially once converted to Kadee’s.
If you have the older wheelsets with one metal and one plastic wheel, Athearn sells updated all metal wheelsets that will fit those trucks. And they also have the complete trucks separately.
Here are few more shots of some of my “improved” Athearn cars.
Sheldon
[quote user=“dknelson”]
Athearn’s passenger cars should be considered in context to what else was being offered in the 1950s. There were full length “standard” cars from Walthers (kits) in O and HO, and in O scale Walthers also offered shortened 60’ versions, perhaps primarily for those who were Lionel O scalers. There were also some 60’ standard shorties in HO from English and Penn Line and Varney and perhaps others I’ve forgotten. There are prototypes for those as well, at least for coach and combine (C&NW), and baggage or RPO. Shorty 60’ streamlined cars by contrast had no prototype except baggage or RPO. Herkimer offered its all metal streamlined cars in full scale length and 60’. Tenshodo offered its brass passenger cars only in 60’ if I recall correctly.
But if you had the full length Walthers HO cars, unless you left off key details and had extra long couplers, you were looking at a minimum radius that was not consistent with train set track.
The compromise 73’ length that Athearn offered was probably pushing the length about as far as it could and still run on 18" radius track (and thus could be offered in a train set).
And speaking of context, also remember that the 1950s also saw quite a bit of use of 15" radius sectional track, which was usable perhaps because most of the prototype diesels being modeled were 4 axle.
Looked at from various angles it was and is impressive how plausible the Athearn length looks so long as a full length car is not nearby to spoil the illusion. It is not jarring to look at as 60’ cars are. They did a more than decent job at selective compression and ditto for their streamlined cars and RDC. The one Athearn car that does not seem so plausible is the diner, at least to my eyes, but that is due to the windows.
Dave Nelson
All my passenger cars are 72’ or shorter, look great, track fine both forward and in reverse with Talgo truck mounted Kadee couplers.
I went with Kadee Scale Shelf Couplers mainly because I didn’t want any accidental uncoupling.
All but one are Athearn in both streamline and heavyweight, I have one 85’ IHC baggage car kitbashed to 60’.
I have a small HO layout and a 85 foot car looks ridicules on my small layout thus the 72 footers.
My tightest mainline curve is 24” with a 32” norm. I do have Atlas #4 turnouts (several S configured turnouts) in my yard and I can back in the Athearn cars with the truck mounted couplers for storage without problems.
I use the baggage cars for lighting power source for both the streamline and heavyweight cars. Each baggage car has a Lithium battery with an onboard track powered charger and I store them on 24/7 switchable powered tracks to prevent a discharged battery over long periods of not running. I use either an under the roof magnetic latching reed switch or a Function Decoder controlled relay to turn on and off the passenger lighting. I operate dual mode DC or DCC and a magnet rod to control the magnetic switch for DC operation and the Function decoder for DCC mode.
Mel
My Model Railroad
http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/
Bakersfield, California
I’m beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
I have two 8-car consists of the Athearn BB cars. One in NYC and another for the Santa Fe.
All have been converted to body mounted couplers and lighted. I’ve tinted the windows of the SF consist and installed passengers in the ‘Vista Dome’ cars.
They look good on my BRVR’s 22-1/2" and 20" main lines.
I also have several “scale” modern cars in UP and NYC liveries that work well on both mainlines with a few modifications.
Most of the Athearn BB cars were purchase 12-15 years ago when the layout was young and still provide excellent service.
I’ll use EZ Mate II because they fit Athearn coupler boxes perfectly. They’re pretty good couplers imho. Kadees are the best in my opinion but objectively that is not provable.
I’ll keep the original trucks. They are plastic with some detail. The wheelsets are indeed one plastic and one metal wheel. I noticed that and thought it odd although simplifies insulating the axle. They look like undersized 28" wheels but swapping to 33" would raise the coupler height. I’ll fit new metal wheelsets and have a look at the better size to use. I’m just guessing the diameter at the moment. I haven’t taken one out of the truck yet.
Thanks, as usual, for all the information. It really helps in the decision making.
The wheel sets were made that way for very basic lighting kit Athern sold that used the truck mounting screw as a conductor to an axle wiper. While they may not look that way because of the oversized flanges on those older wheels, they are actually the correct 36" diameter for passenger cars.
Kadee #148 will drop in as well.
Happy to help,
Sheldon
One has to be a bit careful with statements like “prototype A had 60’ passenger cars”. I have no information about other railroads, but the Santa Fe gives the length of the passenger compartment, without the vestibule(s). Most of their pre-WWII streamlined coaches were classified as 70’. However, a brass model of such a “70 footer” of prototypical length is actually longer than a Con-Cor 72’ coach.
JW