Model the PRR so don’t follow modern stuff too much. What is the story on battery powered locos. How far can they run? How much traction power do they have? Etc. See that sales are picking up. I don’t see how they can be as efficient as diesel powered. Thank you
The problem with batteries is energy density. You can’t make big enough batteries that fit in a usable volume. Same problem as for model locomotives.
A little ironically battery “power” is too light for a locomotive while too heavy for a road vehicle. The former requires more concentration of weight over the drive wheels than batteries can provide while the latter needs more volume than is practical to provide.
Far more practical, although expensive, is to string power lines along the railroad ROW or power the rails themselves, both of which are proven technologies available and in use today.
Batteries are equivalent to fuel tanks. They store power obtained elsewhere. Electric power lines or rails transfer the needed power directly from the generating source to the motors. Transmission efficiency is quite good.
If you do some simple maths the problem becomes clear immediately. Calculate the available energy in a tank of fuel in KWh of electrical power units. Then figure out how big the most energy dense battery would have to be to drive the locomotive as far as that tank of fuel would.
Fossil fuels are very energy dense even when we just burn them. Of course nuclear power would be the way to go if reactors could be made small enough. Steam turbine electrical power generation is also proven technology available today. Nuclear power is the most energy dense fuel source we have available. Some types even make more fuel than they “consume”.
In the prototype world, diesels are electric locomotives. They generate their own electricity on board. In the model world, everything other than live steam is powered electrically. Battery technology has advanced so much in the past few decades that it has become practical to power model locomotives. Having no experience with it, I can’t answer your question as to how powerful these locos are or how long they can go between recharging, but I know people are starting to with it so it must be practical.
I would expect this thread to be moved the electronics forum since it’s not about the prototypes.
My questions are absolutely about prototype engines. I am trying to determine if my thoughts that this is a gimic that the railroads are doing for tax credits or other financial incentives is accurate and that these engines are doomed to failure
BTW it isn’t really a new technology, just improved. There were battery powered or hybrid locomotives in the early 20th century - just as there were battery powered automobiles back then. The main difference is now batteries can be recharged easier, and are more powerful so are becoming able to be used for longer runs.
I don’t have a garden railroad, and at my age, I’m unlikely to ever build one.
But I would be very interested in battery powered locomotives on a garden RR.
Maybe one day electric locomotives will be practical. Look at what electric cars have done recently. A road trip costs less with an EV than with a traditional gas car. Don’t get me wrong, EV’s have shortcomings, but the tech keeps improving.
So an 100 percent electric loco is feasible, just not at the current tech level. A great example is a tram service in Australia (if I recall correctly). The tram runs 100 percent battery power. It has solar panels on the roof which help. It uses regenerative breaking. Then, at its stops, there are large solar panels that are plugged in to the loco during passenger exchanges.
Sounds great, but it has shortcoming. The track is mostly flat. The tram is only two units. But the concept is cool.
Here is the video
There is pressure on the railroads to reduce emissions (as there is on all the transportation sectors) so they are exploring battery operated locomotives. The big problem now is range.
Probably the first engines to be battery operated will be local and switch engines. Ironically, the reason we have diesel electrics is because of pressure on the railroads to reduce emissions. The first diesels were used to reduce smoke in urban areas 100 years ago, so changing motive power for environmental reasons isn’t new.
The second leap it relibility, how well do the batteries stand up to charging cycles. If the batteries need to be replaced too frequently, then the locomotives will be a failure.
I wonder if anybody is looking at battery “tenders”, more or less a road slug or tender that has no control compartment, its just banks of batteries. If they could get the range with a tender up to the 750-1000 mile range, then they could replicate deisel performance and every 750-1000 miles swap out battery tenders, then the tenders could recharge.
Obviously they would want a recharging option instead of dynamic brakes, just like a hybrid cars does. Currently dynamic brakes turn the traction motors into generators/alternators and then the electricity is depleted through a heater grid on the roof. Instead that electric would go to charge the batteries.
I’m sorry I wrote this, but the forum doesn’t allow me to delete the post.
I thought the original post was asking about battery-powered model locomotives.
BHP, a mining company in Western Australia, just ordered 4 battery powered locomotives for their iron ore trains.
My mistake. I thought you were asking about the feasibility of battery powered model locos.
Now I don’t feel so bad. I thought the same thing.
All current electric vehicles of all types are gimmicks done for tax credits or other direct and indirect subsidies.
The current market price of fossil fuels makes electric power uneconomic unless traffic density on a railroad justifies electrification or, in the case of very high speed passenger trains, diesel electric or diesel hydraulic are not efficient enough to move the trains at 300 km/hr.
I checked the over the ground speed of the last TGV I rode from Nantes to Paris at a peak of 300 km/ hr with the satnav on my iPhone. Fastest speed I’ve travelled while still on the ground.
Click on your username. It’ll take you to a complete list of your posts. Delete the post you wish to from that page.
Sure you can. Just go to your post and click on edit. Then delete the content of your post, and type in “post content deleted by author”.
Your post will be there, but anything that you put in which might upset someone else will be gone.
A quick google reveals the battery “powered” locomotives will be consisted with regular diesel electric locomotives. The battery locomotives are the regenerative energy recovery “system”. The run downhill will be used to recharge the batteries by braking the train elecrically instead of wasting that energy as heat as current diesel electric technology requires.
I don’t think there’s an external electrical power station anywhere near that mine and rail link to the port capable of directly recharging those batteries. This “technology” is not cost effective as far as I can tell but is window dressing to reduce total emissions from the trains by recapturing braking energy. Just like a Toyota Prius and you know how much more expensive those are than a comparable Corolla.
Wow. There’s a whole lotta Tesla and Leaf and Volt owners who will be very surprised to learn that. As a Tesla owner myself, I know I am. Now what am I gonna do for transportation? [*-)]
As another Tesla owner, I have to agree with Mark.
Ray
William D. Middleton, in his books, describes the early efforts of the pioneers of electric traction – how they were frustrated in trying to use battery power as a source of electricity. It wasn’t until the dynamo was invented, and continuous collection of “externally-supplied” power by third rail or trolley was implemented, that electric locomotives and cars began to become practical and workable.
I believe it will be so with the fad of “battery powered” locomotives. They’ll be found to be unworkable for all but very limited use cases.
When the battery runs out an inopportune time, the engine stops and becomes dead weight until it’s either towed away or recharged (how long will THAT take?).
Of course a diesel can run out of fuel as well, but can often be refueled in minutes if a rubber-tired fuel truck can be brought near.
Why carry a battery around on the engine (with a finite charge and long recharging time) when you can put a pantograph on the roof and collect unlimited power from an overhead wire?
“Electric” locomotives have been around a long time now. Why not use technology that is known to work, and work well…?