I have generally found that any big 4-8-4 that lacks sprung drivers is about the finickiest engine with regard to trackwork.
John, the 4-8-4’s being finicky is more likely due to the wheelbase length from #1 driver to #4 driver. Have you also owned a number of 5-coupled engines? (2-10-2’s and the like) I would think they would also have the same issues as the 4-8-4’s on the same track work because of their wheelbase.
It really doesn’t matter if the drivers are sprung or not because the springs are only there for electrical contact. They are not there for suspension.
I would agree, the combination of large drivers and number axles makes for long wheelbase issues.
As for the comment above about the Spectrum 2-10-2, agreed, agreed its pulling power is not as good as the 4-8-2 it shares a boiler with, but still not bad. But on the prototype is was little more than a slow jumbo Mikado anyway, not really in a class with any modern power.
I did a recent test for another forum member, If I recall, mine pulled 30 of my 5 ounce piggyback flats on the level, not really too bad for a USRA light.
Sheldon-
I have had no problems operating 2-10-2’s on my layout. The BLI ATSF 2-10-2, for example, actually did operate very well on my layout, I just didn’t particularly care for the slotted valve rod they designed to allow tight radius operation.
The BLI 4-12-2 ran very well on my layout, too, now that some of my curves are 32" or 30" radius, and the minimum is 26.4".
In contrast, I have owned a number of 4-8-4’s from a number of manufacturers, including MTH and BLI. These big drivered, long rigid wheelbase engines have had more problems on my curves than the smaller drivered 2-10-2’s I have owned. In some cases the big drivers on the 4-8-4’s actually take up a longer wheelbase than the 2-10-2’s, so would be of more potential concern.
I like sprung-drivered engines because when they traverse a vertical kink in trackwork, at least for me on my layout which is not perfect, they seem less prone to wobbling or outright derailment (when I owned MTH 4-8-4’s, they wanted to derail and I had to fix a number of minor issues with my trackwork that didn’t affect other engines). Other 4-8-4’s owned since have had less trouble but still minor issues.
I personally prefer the sprung-drivered engines as they seem to track better for me. I have done low speed tests with recent brass (made by Boo Rim since 2010) and was actually able to see the springs keeping drivers down on the rails at a kink, so it appears they actually do make a slight contribution to improved tracking.
John
I just picked up the SP&S version of the Genesis Z-8 4-6-6-4 and am very satisfied with it. Control and pulling power is excellent, and the sound isn’t bad, either. Along with my Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 and my Bachmann 2-6-6-2, these are my best-running plastic locos. (I’m big on articulateds)
Brass-wise, the best running locos I have are, believe it or not, a trio of old Akane Missabe 2-8-8-4’s that date from the mid 1960’s. I improved the original motors with rare earth magnets, added pickups, articulated the drive shafts, did some replacing of details with newer ones from PSC, and those locos can raise and lower the garage doors. I did the same thing to a pair of PFM Rio Grande L-131’s and they’re almost as smooth and powerful. Finishing off the big brass articulateds is a pair of Westside Rio Grande L-105 Challengers that can haul anything and look absolutely gorgeous doing it, lol! All of my brass has additional pickups for smooth operation.
Tom
Interesting comments Tom, and you are not the only one to prefer the older Akane and Westside articulateds–it seems some others do as well.
I do agree, now, one can never have too many articulateds!
Interesting layout and photos. I see you used a little modeler’s license to have D&RGW 2-8-8-4’s, which they liked their winter Missabe visitors so much that they did actually contemplate buying their own, according to LeMassena…
John
Did the post go away about two non-brass D&RGW steam engines?
Yes, I know there was a Proto 2000 power house steam engine back in the early 1990’s that represented a 2nd hand steam engine Rio Grande acquired and used for a short time, and of course the short live WWII era Challengers (UP type).
So the only non-brass DRGW HO steam engine are models of minor players; you can’t model standard steam era D&RGW on two very minor non-brass steam engines so yes, it’s pretty much mostly brass and high cost. I had a D&RGW friend who claimed he was in the top 3% earning category in the US and yep, he modeled early 1950’s steam era D&RGW, and bought a bunch of brass steam engines; he could afford it along with the diesels and passenger cars of that transition period. I do think D&RGW std gauge steam is cool, but I can’t afford the brass and have my favorite 2nd generation Rio Grande era models too.
Actually, before they ceased steam loco production, Proto 2000 produced a well-detailed model of the Rio Grande 3500 USRA copy articulated built by ALCO in 1927. That is the one I have on my layout, and not the earlier Proto N&W that was bought second hand by the Rio Grande and numbered in the 3550 series during WWII.
I like the USRA copy, class L-107 on the Rio Grande, best of all. However, LeMassena writes they spent a lot of time as helpers, though there are photos where they were the road engine.
Sometimes the PFM 2-6-6-0 Denver & Salt Lake engine is affordable cheap, and sometimes the Custom Brass L-76/N&W Z1a can be found cheaply. They have can motors and good gearboxes…had one once…I am just waiting for another steal on one…
Not all Rio Grande steam is outta sight, but one must shop smart…
Right now I am just happy to have the Genesis 4-6-6-4, and a friend sold me the rare William Kratville book about the Challengers affordably. It is a great read.
John
John, the L-107 I have from Proto is a very quiet, VERY smooth runner, if a little light on its feet (the Bachmann 2-6-6-2 is actually a better puller out of the box). However, I dabbed some Bullfrog Snot on one of the driver pairs, and it now pulls quite beautifully. I do have a PFM Moffat 2-6-6-0 that I found for a reasonable price when Caboose Hobbies in Denver was still consigning used brass. It’s an early one, and though it runs well, it was originally very noisy from that PFM reduction gear. I installed a can motor and it quieted down some, but not all that much. But it’s a charmer to watch, lol!
Tom
That would have been back in the 1990’s? It’s probably hard to find now. Back when those came out, I was a grad student and couldn’t have afforded one of those Proto articulateds and I bet they are very hard to find now.
As it is, I am firmly a 2nd generation diesel era SP and D&RGW fan so the only reason I would run steam is for a bit of fun, and I can’t afford much steam for that purpose.
In fact I never owned an HO steam engine until a couple years ago when I splurged and bought a 3rd run IMRC SP AC-10 Cab Forward steam engine since I had to have at least one. Those were supposed to be the best performing of all the runs IMRC did in HO.
There have been at least 3 L-107’s on Ebay recently, but horribly weathered by the owner…how disappointing…words do not describe.
Thats the downside to weathered rolling stock - very often it becomes a liability to sell rather than a bonus. More often than not, weathered models on Ebay look awful to me, although occasionly they look well done and add value. Anyway, I’m not on a treasure hunt for hard to find steam engines. Heck, I’m finding it challenging to keep up with buying rolling stock which fits my focus as it is.
Just one more reason not to view model trains as an investment. I personally keep weathering on the very light side, but I refuse to alter my modeling taste to fit some concern about future value - brass or not.
But the other side for me is that I don’t generally buy stuff “already been played with”. “used” stuff needs to be more like “new old stock” to interest me.
Sheldon
It seems to be mostly non model railroaders that mistakenly think trains an investment. I used to hear a lot more people say that back in the 1970’s and 1980’s, but I’d guess most people who have been around the block a few times know that, in general, buying model trains as an investment is a spurious thing.
That said, weathering is something that really enhances the realism of models, and considering how many I have it’s going to take a long time to make that happen. But it does need to be done well or it has the opposite affect. I’m hoping to have a proper shop area where I can practice on some of my cheap models.
Same here. Many are selling stuff they bought but never used and is still NIB. I’ve picked up a number of those type items as well as new old stock. Ether usually work out well. I’ve sold alot of models that were never ran or test ran only and they were basically NIB too - no complaints.
In contrast to Sheldon, I prefer used (but not abused) stuff, and don’t really care if it’s weathered or not, as I usually plan to upgrade the details and apply new paint and lettering.
Less than half of my currently-owned locomotives were bought new and I’d guess my rolling stock to be about a 50/50 mix of new and used.
Like Sheldon, though, I don’t let anyone influence my decision to weather everything to suit my tastes, including brass locomotives.
I did find that when I decided to backdate my layout, I had absolutely no difficulty in selling all of my “too new” cars and locomotives (many of them originally, to me, previously used, but upgraded), and I actually made money. On most items it was at least double what I had payed, but there were quite a few that went for considerably more.
Perhaps buyers weren’t too fussy or I just happened to hit things at the right time.
Once I’ve spent money on something, I simply enjoy it and don’t worry about its future value.
Wayne
Probably most of us have sold some items that were more than we paid for them but as a rule, I don’t make money on the stuff I have sold if you average it out. I’ve never bought anything with future value in mind, other than the fun factor.
Sheldon–
I should have been more clear: The weathered L-107’s on Ebay were very poorly done, imo. If they were even remotely decent, like the factory weathered Spectrum W&LE 2-6-6-2’s that are out there, I’d have bought one. But they are weathered with colors that you never saw on Rio Grande steam–earth tones and mud–maybe on UP or somewhere else, but just not on Rio Grande. Rio Grande steam usually had a greyish, sooty weathered look to it, when not freshly painted.
I actually have no problem paying for nicely weathered equipment, brass or otherwise, as it does look more realistic if it is done “well”.
I have a second Genesis 4-6-6-4 sitting here, brand new in box, that I’m actually contemplating sending to my favorite painter for weathering, if I determine that I can keep it (got it on cheap blowout sale, and figured getting both road numbers was the way to go). That way I’d have one engine at least weathered by the guy, if I go ahead and sell the last, and most expensive, brass model…as I said, I now need that money for travel baseball, as selling just that one model would buy one whole season for my son…which was not a concern when I was buying brass as he was not in high school yet, and I had a realistic expectation he would play much more than they played him.
John
I run and enjoy stuff too, but if it’s legitimately worth big bucks, and the wheels show little or no evidence of any wear at all (stainless steel driver tires don’t wear), I’m going to sell it for what it’s actually worth.
I know one guy, right now, who is a bit disappointed in himself at selling a late PFM Crown Niagara several years back for $975. He is retired now and wants to replace it. They are easily $2500 now.
So, maybe they are not investments per se, but those who held onto some of the later, most desirable stuff, can easily realize some real growth in their assets.
Now plastic…my plastic is only toys to me, and I assume is worth significantly less as soon as I run it.
John
I see that a lot, mud and colors I can’t ever recall seeing on real trains - aweful. Maybe people think trains show have mud smeared all over them but not the ones I see now or back whenever. Yuk. Trains have more an even coating of soot and grime.
Kids are expensive. Due to lifes circumstances, I didn’t have a college fund saved up for my daughter and for the past four years, I’ve had quite a financial burden, which puts a major dent in that “disposable income” and kept my train budget lower than I’d like. Buying that one Cab Forward was a one-off for me as much as it might be nice to have a couple more! My daughter is finished with college and working for Lockheed Martin now so hurray, I make my last college payment for her end of this month! That will free up funds to move to a bigger basement for trains! =P
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