I just bought the engine of my dreams, the green-boilered Great Northern 2-8-0 Consolidation from Broadway Limited. I’m mainly interested in having a DCC buddy for my only other digital loco, so now I can take full advantage of my DCC operation by having more than one engine on the layout. I can already do that in DC because of the block wiring, and I have several DC locos to run. But the description says that this DCC loco also runs on DC. I’m skeptical because I’ve heard cautions and fail stories about that.
So here’s my question: In your experience, can we really expect a DCC locomotive to run well in DC mode?
It doesn’t even matter if the answer is “fuhgettaboutit”. I don’t have to run it in DC because I have the layout rigged to switch entirely over to DCC. But I am curious what others have experienced with DC/DCC locos.
It will run in DC just not nearly as well since everything still goes through the decoder. Your starting voltages will be higher and you will have a much smaller usable range on the DC throttle. I have tried running some my DCC lcomotives us DC and was not impressed.
You will also have to make sure that DC mode is enabled on the decoder or it may not work with DC voltage at all. I purposely disable DC functions on my decoders to prevent runaways during short circuits when straight DC current can sometimes be introduced to the track.
The performance of DCC locomotives on DC varies so what you will experience is hard to say.
Your best bet is to try it out and see what happens.
Actually, I’m not even sure I understand what you mean by straight DC. If you run a DCC engine on a DC system, then isn’t there straight DC going through the track the whole time? I guess maybe if it goes through the encoder then it has somehow become some OTHER kind of DC?
I’ll consider giving the new engine a spin on DC when it comes, but the moment it looks or sounds at all weird I’m shutting that circus down. I’m more just curious about it in a theoretical way, and I’ve separated my DC from my DCC with a center off DPDT and the impossibility of having both systems’ power sources plugged in at the same time.
Before I “switched over” to DCC in 2005 I ran several Broadway Limited locos (they only had the GG1 and NYC Hudson back then) and they ran fine on DC. That was with old QSI decoders, though. The speed range is limited while on DC.
You disable the decoder’s ability to operate in DC by altering the bits programmed into CV29. That particular CV is very important in DCC world because it also controls your light operations, which end of a diesel goes ‘forward’, and so on. If you google 'CV29 cal" you’ll quickly find the search engine providing you with several sites with tables to determine which operating characteristics you want for the locomotive, and then it will tell you which value to programme into CV29.
The decoder only operates in DC. It will accept the square wave alternating current, but it rectifies that AC into DC because that’s all the can motor can use; it’s a strictly DC motor. So, while it might get DCC at the ra
There are variations from decoder to decoder regarding how they perform on DC.
And then the bigger problem, it depends on WHAT KIND of DC you are using.
Very few power packs are pure, well filtered DC, and that is not the best way to control a motor on DC anyway. We all know by now that PWM is the best way to control a DC motor, that’s why the decoder uses it.
The OP needs to understand that as long as DC operation is enabled, his loco will run on most “normal” DC power packs. How well it will run, its realitive top speed, and the comprssion of the speed range will vary with a lot of factors.
I’m not going to try to explain them all…
WARNING - if by chance a DC user is using a full voltage pulse width modulated (PWM for short) throttle, there is a good chance the decoder equiped loco will not run, or will run VERY poorly.
I have yet to find a dual mode decoder that will run on my ARISTO
Anything bought new in the last few years equipped with a dual mode decoder will run fine in DC mode if powered by a relatively new DC powerpack.
The sound equipped locomotives need 7-8 volts DC typically before they power up and start making sounds. They start moving from there on up. That’s a limitation imposed by the sound system.
This compresses the throttle range from 1- 14v down to about 8-14v. Your throttle hand/finger needs to be that much more precise to get acceptable results. You quickly get used to this. The locomotive generally will have a lower top speed in DC mode, but not always.
My personal experience is that relatively recent dual mode sound decoders from all the major manufacturers run acceptably well and produce enjoyable sounds while in DC mode (not tried Kato, for some reason I haven’t found a Kato I want to buy and I notice they don’t hit the used market all that often, I’d buy the right one in a heartbeat ).
In fact, they run well enough in DC mode I likely won’t be buying any more new DCC ready locomotives. DCC is getting better and better with each new release of decoders. It seems to be a mature technology and the surviving makers of DCC equipment have the resources to now continuously refine and improve the basically capable systems they build. DCC with sound is the future of this hobby and getting better all the time.
Testing an Athearn RTR Consolidation with its basic Econami sound decoder yesterday my daughter remarked more than once how loud these are. Switching off the sound revealed just how good these new decoders are. Smooth, quiet running, good factory set momentum effects and so on. F8 silences the locomotive instantly. But my grandson (18 months) prefers the sounds also.
DCC dual decoders with sound just don’t run well in DC mode when you’re also operating regular DC locomotives. They don’t mix. The sound equipped don’t even run well with non sound DCC i
As I look at this thread, and recently so many more like it, I am amazed that more and more guys want to run DCC locos on DC layouts, and DC locos on DCC layouts.
I get it. Some guys have operated DC layouts for years, accumulated a lot of DC locos, and just cannot convert to DCC for financial reasons, or sentimental reasons, or both.
But, I gotta agree with you in general, Sheldon. Why not one or the other? Or, run separate layouts if you have the space. Or, add a DCC powered track to your DC layout. Or, figure out a foolproof way, if there is one, to flip a switch to run either DC or DCC, one or the other.
In order to avoid the “potential” hijacking of the thread and to help facilitate longer discussions on queries that are highly technical in nature (and, yes - this has happened more than once already this year), I would recommend starting a separate thread on the topic - Thanks.
I think we have the same dreams. That engine is like a temptress. Buy me sir, I can be all yours for less than you think. Still talking about the engine by the way.
Completely wrong, old or new, if that DC throttle/power pack uses pulse width modulation, most, if not all decoders will go nuts.
Says you. I have spent dozens, if not hundreds of hours operating the DCC layouts of my friends with sound equiped locos, After 15-30 minutes I can’t stand the noise. Especially if there are multiple engines running (even at low volumes) and people trying to talk over the loco sounds.
To each there own, but don’t assume you know what others like/want.
I will now defer to Tom’s request and wait for a more detailed discussion elsewhere if it appears, and if not, that’s ok too.
I agree with most of what Sheldon states. While I, myself, like and use DCC, I am more into it for the independent control than the sound. And, as far as sound, my tolerance level is higher for a steam locomotive than a diesel. But even after a period of time my ears say enough and F8 (for mute) is a welcome alternative. That allows me to listen to and enjoy the clickity-clack of the metal wheels crossing over the rail joints, which I find relaxing.
I was strictly a DC guy but was hedging my bets with DCC ready locos way back. DCC did not appeal to me at my new abode as I was building a small railroad but a chance buy on e-bay of a MTH diesel with sound and a DCC starter set fo less than $200 got me to playing an a straight peice of track, got hooked on the sound, and then the other electronics like frog juicers etc.
Before this becomes completely about something else (too late, right), I just thought I’d say thanks everyone for the information about this… and even your personal opinions on this. I don’t think I’ll have a compelling reason to run my new DCC loco on the DC system and thanks to this thread I can see compelling reasons NOT to.
When I’m in a sound mood I’ll be able to run my Consolidation as the mainline power (freight or passenger), and drop cuts of cars for the RS-3 to come fetch off the siding, build into trains in the yard, and run up the branch to deliver in Priest River. Otherwise, I’ll run my DC locos and I have ten power blocks to play with. Tickety-boo.
@Sheldon, I’m glad you said you find sound annoying after a while. I have experienced the same thing and felt guilty about it. I like the sounds, but it does start to get on my nerves and I thought maybe there was something wrong with me.
Can someone please change the title of this thread to correct “Consolidated” to “Consolidation”? How embarrassing. I know someone can do it because my post titles have been edited by others before. Please and thank you.
Matt, while I don’t hold a degree in audiology, one of my other hobbies is building HiFi speaker systems.
It is well proven audio science that sounds that are tinny or lack full range are more likely to become irratating to our senses.
The little speakers in our trains cannot reproduce sounds much below 200-300 Hz, and start lacking smoothness or fidelity way before getting that low. So the lack of base sounds, in program material that should have base sounds, can set your brain a little crazy,
For someone running locos on a DC layout, the introduction of sound from a DCC decoder can be an exciting change of pace. I get that.
But for someone running locos on a DCC layout, sound can be annoying after awhile, particularly if occurring simultaneously from several locos. Then, it’s time to mute several or all in the interest of peace and quiet.