You might consider Intermountains F units. They’re as prototypical as the Genesis’, more prototypical than the BLI’s and less expensive than either and they run GREAT!!!
Dick
Texas Chief
Riogrande
I was surprised too when I looked up the date. I knew the F3’ were used for a short time but thought it might be three or four years.
The FP7’s actually pulled the train for most of the time until the very end. I visit the Portola Museum about once a year and have been on the FP7 there. We ran the GP9E twice now in their Run A Locomotive program . I had asked for one of the F units last trip up there but both the F7 and the FP7 were in maintenance. They had three Zephyr cars there also the last time I was up to Portola
http://www.wplives.org/WPRM_Home/WPRM_webcam/wprm_webcam.html
If you are looking at WP Passenger engines I selected Intermountain account of the detail applied that some may not notice. I worked for WP and worked all passenger units and what really caught my eye is fantastic truck detail, binder and swing plates and the screen on the sides of the 3’s of which to me is perfect, Genisis in my openion was close but no Cigar. …I dont know why Intermountain is not known better,great detail smooth runners and bought these F units for approx $75 each including shipping…there are great deals on the net…I would sugest visiting your LHS and decide on what you want…then you will be openionated too…LOL…Good luck in your quest…John
JWAR,
Did you know any one at WP with the last name Wall? My housemate in college was Richard Wall (he did work for WP for a short time) but both his father and grandfather were WP employee’s too.
Intermountain sales and reputation has suffered probably because of timing on the market. Genesis hit first, and were very nice looking (to my eye) and cheaper. Intermountain came out at a higher price and availability was more spotty.
The Intermountain F’s look nice but I haven’t bought any. They were originally more expensive than Genesis when they first came out but have apparently come down in price. The only minor thing to my eye was that the post between the windshields looked a hair wide but otherwise nice loco’s. I have stuck with my older Stewarts plus Genesis recently as Intermountain to date has never pained single strip Rio Grande so no purchases.
Yep, those were the ones I was looking for. Problem was that i was looking on FDT’s site and walthers and didn’t find them. Sometimes I feel really stupid… [:D]
I was looking for BLI engines, didn’t occur to me that it was PCM.
Thanks for the help everyone.
Magnus
I think it is confusing of BLI to have all these other names. Sometimes I wonder if it is their effort to distance the BLI name where many foibles have been made to a new name that buyers will be willing to try.
Oh no no no. Way wrong there. [;)] The F3s were used for only a “short time” and then re-geared and re-assigned to freight service (1955). Even during that time the E units supplimented the Fs. The E5s even had a few at bats for it. From that point on CZ power came from the general passenger fleet pool. Considering the entire life of the train the E units pulled the CZ most of the time. Either red or black striped noses would be prototypical. Most of the photos I have of the CZ east of Denver have the E units on the front.
My theory is that it had something to do with the BLI company being locked into a contract with the QSI sound systems. Notice BLI locomotives have QSI, while the PCM have locsound, and the "BLUE LINE’ have their own electronics.
The BLI/PCM name and use of it probably is due to the use of the QSI first in the BLI models and then the use of Loksound in the PCM models.
I personally don’t care what they call the company since they have offered me personally more great models with sound than all of the other companies combined. They have done this at a price I can afford and most of their models are very nice. I do have two BLI locomotives that I thought were below their quality level, but knowing they have used more than one builders in China, some problems are bound to happen.
The PCM models with Loksound are great running models. The Loksound DCC portion is comparable to the Zimo in running qualties. When you can start the Big Boy at such a slow pace to watch the rods take up slack, you know it runs well. You won’t see this on any of the other rmodels available today except the Trix.
It might be confusing, but their new catalogs do have both BLI and PCM in the pages and the web site has been combined.
Cheers
Thanks for the nomenclature explanation for BLI and PCI etc.
As it is, non of the related companies have offered anything I need yet so I haven’t had to face the possibility of buying from them. My date range for modeling is 1965-early 1990’s (with a focus on the mid-late 80’s). Even for the earliest of my period, I would need mainly Rio Grande single stripe F units, a few 4-stripe and D&RGW switcher scheme for hood units. BLI has only offered (to my knowledge) the earliest of paint schemes which are appropriate for the 1940’s and early 50’s.
The F unit number boards don’t look quite right so in a way, I"m glad I haven’t been faced with buying them. The Genesis F units are quite nice and offered in single stripe D&RGW and I expect more to come since that scheme has sold out the fastest. (no surprise and finally I’m glad a manufacturer has discovered this paint scheme is economically popular!). Athearn is now working on runs of “modernized F units” so that should include more mid-late 1960’s F units!). Woot!
I do have a single PA (D&RGW 4-stripe) and I only bought that one because in the 1960’s it pulled a short passenger train called the Yampa Valley Mail. The P2K 4-stripe PA’s were the longest running paint scheme and pulled the CZ in that scheme from about 1952 to 1958. One person reported a photo of an ABA PA set pulling the CZ in 1959 but 58 is generally considered the last year PA’s regularly pulled the CZ.
At least you have it down to three eras (four eras for the Zephyrs). That is more than I could do.
Intermountain announced the F units 1st, MRC displayed a poorly designed prototype at the Hobbymodels convention in Rosemont, Il. the following Oct. I believe, and then Athearn jumped on the bandwagon and brought them out on the market before the rest could get them built. Stewarts version is real nice but without the detail. The Intermountain F units were originally made in kit form and then shortly after in assembled shells only to fit the Athearn or Stewart power chassis.
Dick
Texas Chief
Right. But the salient thing is that Genesis F units hit the market (hobby shelfs) first as I already said. That hurt Intermountain together with IMR’s initial higher prices. I don’t recall, but Intermountain may have had some decorated shells on the store shelves before RTR Genesis F units, but shells without chassis didn’t quite do it for many modelers, who had to separately purchase a Stewart chassis etc. I recall during the first couple of years after Intermountain F RTR units were shipped, they generally sat on shelves and didn’t sell well. Mean while Genesis F’s sold briskly. I don’t know if I am typical, but I don’t own any IMR F units at all, and I do own 8 Genesis F’s, and some 20 Stewart. I am selling one of my Stewart Rio Grandes in black w/yellow stripes since it doesn’t fit my mid-1960’s and later time period.
It seems like a time issue that has dogged Intermountain all along with their F series. I would like to get one of their WP FP7A’s since it pulled the Zephyr (back on topic). I have 2 Stewart F3B’s to add as boosters.
I agree, Stewarts are real nice too, and only a few things hold them back in comparison: the mold lines on the nose, the lack of separately applied side grills (but the molded ones look very good) and the front coupler pocket opening isn’t correct. But otherwise the shell is quite nice and the chassis top notch.
Thanks for all your help guys. You truly are a fountain of knowledge.
I’ve decided to order the CB&Q F3 ABA from PCM if I decide to get the set. I think they look great and is pretty much what I’ve been looking for.
Now another issue. What would a good six and ten car train be made up off? I want one small and another possibly larger one to use on the layout.
Magnus
That is a lot harder question. Actually a 10 car was fairly common off season. The one I’ve given below is simulating a peak season with only 10 cars. To model a prototypical off season drop the first dome coach and replace it with a 6/5 sleeper after the diner.
baggage
dome coach (women & children)
dome coach
dome coach (conductor)
dome lounge
diner
10/6 sleeper
10/6 sleeper
16 sleeper
dome observation
Six car. The trick here is to try to maintain the overall profile of the train. I considered one with three domes up front but that is too “domey” and doesn’t give enough distance between the front domes and the observation dome. There is no lounge but for a train this short the coach class passengers can use the lounge in the observation car. Note there is no dorm for the crew in this train! They probably get one of the double bedrooms right behind the diner.
baggage
dome coach
dome coach (conductor)
diner
10/6 sleeper
dome observation
OR
baggage
dome coach (conductor)
dome lounge
10/6 sleeper
10/6 sleeper
dome observation
This last set puts back in the coach class lounge and dorm for the crew but there is no diner. Everyone has to eat at the buffet! If one leaves in the diner there isn’t enough room for paying customers to ride.
FYI here is what I consider a normal peak season train for the set of loco’s you have chosen (about 1951):
baggage
dome coach (women & children)
dome coach
dome coach (conductor)
dome lounge
diner
5/6 sleeper
10/6 sleeper
10/6 sleeper
16 sleeper
10/6 sleeper (transcon from PRR or NYC)
dome observation
During the F3 era of the CB&Q, the rule for the CZ was generally the standard 11 car train or 12 cars:
baggage,3 dome coaches,1 dome-lounge,diner,6-5 sleeper,3 10-6 sleepers,16 section sleeper,dome obs.
The late 1960’s is the time when the CZ consists varied alot and were as short as 9 cars in the winter but as long as 12-14 cars in the summer. It makes for more interesting modeling to do these variations. Of course the CB&Q run E units at that time. Proto 2000 made those and you could find them on Ebay probalby.
I don’t think this train ran in this configuration “off season” in the early 1950’s:
baggage
dome coach (women & children)
dome coach
dome coach (conductor)
dome lounge
diner
10/6 sleeper
10/6 sleeper
16 sleeper
dome observation
In the 1950’s summer and winter trains were the same as far as I know. I don’t think it was until the 1960’s that the trains really varied alot. The bottom line is of course that you can do what you want on your own model RR!
Once again guys, thanks. One more question, did the CZ mix roadnames? I.e is it possible for me to stick a WP diner in a another wise CB&Q train or perhaps even to or three WP’s in a CB&Q train or did the CZ always run homogenic? I would like to know since I can get hold of a WP baggage car but not a CB&Q as far as I’ve looked.
Thanks, Magnus
Magnus,
The sets of cars always came in a mix of roadnames on the CZ. There is some evidence that a few cars ran on the home road before service started (there was mention of the WP doing that earlier in this thread) but I don’t recall if it was mentioned that they were all WP cars. Of course, the Rio Grande Zephyr ran all Rio Grande cars after the end of the CZ, when the D&RGW decided not to join Amtrak and run the RGZ instead. Otherwise, to properly duplicate a typical CZ consist, the cars in it should come in a mix of roadnames.
Thanks, I must have missed that, I appreciate you telling me, that is great news, then I can really mix and match to my harts content. Something that I love to do, to be honest I would probably have done it anyways but if it can be prototypical so much the better.
Magnus
I find it intereting that you see entire BLI trainstes in one road name for sale on Ebay. The CZ probably never ran that way ever. I have a list of the 6 original CZ train sets on the first day the CZ ran save on my other computer - I think it was on a Western Pacific railroad website. It is a table showing a pretty even mix of all three road names on each train set. Probably for 11 cars you would want 4 CB&Q cars, 4 WP cars and 3 D&RGW cars but thats not a hard and fast rule.
What I did was acquire all the BLI CZ cars which were offered for D&RGW that were common to the RGZ. There were only 7 cars that I could identify (3 dome coaches, 1 48 seat flat top coach, 1 diner, 1 lounge and 1 dome obs). I think the remaining 1 dome coach and 1 flat top coach are coming on a future run). Then someone offered a bunch of CZ cars on the yahoo groups email list and I picked up another 8 cars which were a mix of WP and CB&Q cars and 1 D&RGW sleeper. So out of 15 cars I can build a CZ which is a pretty even mix if slightly scewed toward Rio Grande. But in all likely hood there were some CZ sets that had 4 D&RGW cars in them by chance.
After 1971 when the Rio Grande ran its RGZ, all the CZ name boards were removed and if BLI offers versions of their cars without name boards then I will be forced to consider if I’m going to buy another 9 cars! Rio Grande sold off all it’s sleepers and baggage car since none of those were needed on the RGZ.