Brass, is it worth it?

Model Railroader General Discussion (Model Railroader)
1

I have a few brass locomotives and cabooses for my layout which feature the steam era of the N&W and the Pocahontas Division from Bluefield, WV to Williamson, WV. I am thinking of run some passenger trains in addition to freight. I read from individuals such as Howard Zane that brass is not only a good investing monetarily speaking but also with respect to holding up to long term wear and tear of running equipment.

Any ideas, experience or thoughts about brass versus plastic? I love the detail of brass and the look. Sometimes, it is hard to find the equipment one is seeking. Precision Scale has some Class A, Class J and Class Y locomotives. They are expensive. Are they worth it? I have some older pieces such as the 2-8-0 W2’s from NWSL and an old PFM Class A that a friend is painting and installing Tsunami sound.

2

Of course they are worth it, if that is what you want. It is hard to get them to run all that well, but it can be done. I have put sound decoders in three and they work. I have friends who have done several and they are fabulous. They cost more, they take more work to run well, but they look great and can be made to run well. I wouldhave dozens if I had the cash and had started earlier. I still have one on hand to get working and maybe will get to that this winter.

3

Well, for me in most cases the answer is no. BUT, I am mostly a freelance modeler, and I like to build or kit bash (or RTR bash these days). So I can usually find/build what I need without the high price of brass.

I only have two pieces of brass, and have only owned one additional piece in all my 40 years in the hobby. But I have worked on more than few for others.

Durable - well yes and no - repairable is a better term. They wear out, break, have problems, etc. like anything else. But, the nature of their construction does allow them to be repaired in most all casees.

Admittedly that is not always the case with mass produced plastic and die cast locos.

As for brass rolling stock, too rich for my blood when I can just build it. And with what’s out there in plastic today - why?

The two brass pieces I have are USRA light Pacifics. My roster needed them and no good quality plastic one has EVER been offered (why is that?). But my brass ones now have plastic tenders and have been reworked and detailed a bit, as older brass often needs.

Now, if brass is the only way to get the stuff you want for your prototype, and you are willing to spend the money - go for it. But don’t do it as an investment. Much of the used brass on the market as we speak is being sold at fire sale prices compared to what it was bought for. The market for most of it is way down. How do you think I got two USRA Pacifics - one was $200, the other only $100. And the $200 one is a real nice PFM.

One other point, detail for detail, a good model is a good model and properly painted no one knows what its made out of - except the owner. Much of what is out there in plastic/die cast is BETTER detailed than a lot of older brass.

I’m not anti brass, I just don’t need it meet my modeling goals, so I would rather spend my money elsewhere, especially since I like to build models, not just buy and run them.

Sheldon

4

Brass as an investment? Prior to mid 1997, possibly, but only for certain items… be it old and then considererd rare, or for some of the new crop coming from Korea and built by Samhongsa for importers such as W&R and Challenger. Brass as fine art? Most definetly, but again such as in purchasing other fine art, the buyer must be astute.

When I ran my brass sales business, I rarely advised buyers to purchase for possible profit, but only because they want to own the model. Several factors have contributed to what many see as a decline in brass sales and all around interest. The first would be pricing, which is now for new imports out of the reach of most modelers; the current economy; the influx of really excellent die cast and plastic counterparts; and now being several generations away from steam which is really the crux of brass models. Also, losing many of the once serious brass afficiandos to retirement and death.

For a counter arguement, log onto www.brasstrains.com . This is a completely professional and extremely well run business that has taken a product in which many see in decline, and has done rather well…actually incredibly well! Dan Glasure, the proprietor has written an excellent book on this very subject. It will answer many questions.

For the person modeling…let’s say N&W in 1948, to complete his desired roster, this modeler will have to turn to brass until what he is searching for is mass produced in plastic or die cast.

HZ

5

I have never seen any evidence that shows brass trains (or any other trains) to be a good investment over the long term. There may be a very few that have done well, or a period of a year or 2 when brass prices rose faster than the stock market, but these are the exception. And how do you pick them in advance? And then of course there is the problem that you buy at retail and sell at wholesale (or have the hassle of selling your them yourself through eBay or other media and still may take a loss). I think you are better off investing in the stock market. Oh and don’t run them as that lowers their value.

Worth it? Up to you. I will consider them if they fill a need and the price is not too high. I own 2 pieces of brass, both Sn2. One is a Forney locomotive, the other is a passenger car. I bought these because I have an interest in Sn2 and there are no other locomotives or passenger cars available in Sn2. These will let me get started when I get into building a small Sn2 layout. But the rest of my locomotives will be kitbashed MDC HOn3 kits (that I bought when they were still available) and the cars will be mostly scratchbuilt though I do have a few freight car kits. On the standard gauge side I have more than enough non brass locomotives and cars to meet my operational needs even for the large layout I’m planning.

Enjoy

Paul

6

Only if you want quality instead of quantity. You can add details to brass that would be difficult to add to plastic.

7

The answer is a clear yes and no!

If your favorite prototype is available only as a brass loco, well, then you don´t have much of an option other than to buy brass. If it is available as a plastic or die-cast loco, I´d go for that one, for reasons of price or a better mechanism.

In any case I would not see brass locos as an investment.

I am right now pondering to buy either a used brass Key Imports D&RGW C-19 or the to be released Blackstone Model. For the price of the brass model, I get the Blackstone version painted and lettered, with a Tsunami sound decoder to boot. I guess I will be going for the Blackstone Model…

8

Well, where should we start? Investment? I have brass that I bought in the 1960’s, 1970’s, and 1980’s and I’m talking about “new” items at the time, have they incresed in value, no doubt they have. In some cases many times their original value, others, not so much, it all depends on the model, literally. Some that were made have incresed drastically such as Rock Island 4-8-4’s and 4-8-2’s for starters both of which I bought new for under $200 a piece and now bring upwards of $1000 a piece as an example. Now obviously not all brass has gone up by that amount but enough of it has that there is truth to what Howard Zane says and he has been into brass for enough years to know. Now this rule applies darn near exclusively to brass “steam” locos only. Brass diesels, freight cars, (with exceptions of course), cabooses, (again with exceptions), and passenger cars have generally taken it in the “shorts” as a result of the high quality plastic available. Again, there are always exceptions to this such as Harriman passenger cars but as soon as somebody figures out there is a very strong market for them that will change as well.

Now let’s discuss performance, brass has almost always required someone who has knowledge and ability if they intend to actually “run” their engines, that said I have been painting and fine tuning brass since the mid 1960’s and again with some exceptions have never had a problem in making them run extremely smooth in the “as built” configuration. NWSL also makes fine replacement gearboxes and can motors to further enhance the running qualities of almost any brass “steam” locomotive and they will continue to do this for many, many years as I have some fine examples that I purchased in the 1960’s that run as smooth as any plastic steam I have ever seen in todays market. So would you consider 40 years and still going a good record? I certainly would and would be quite surprised to see any of todays crop of plastic steamers

9

For the most part, I’d say “No”. But only in regards to things that are eithe rlikely to be mass pruced in plastic, or have been. If you want a good looking model of one of the Theatre cars like UP’s Idaho, you largely only have one option. Overland. Also applies to a few one-off cars with EXTREME paintjobs on them, like the Salt Lake Olympics train.

BUT, a grwing number of engines like the A Y and J you mentioned have been done and done well in Plastic, between Bachmann, Proto, BLI/Precision Craft, even (horror of horrors) MTH, it just doesn’t seem for me to get any better in Brass.

10

For me, no it is not worth it. I simply can’t afford it, so even if it was a bargain i couldn’t afford it.

That said, I have read numerous complaints about the brass models when brass comes up, not quite as much as plastics, but lets face it plastic has a wider following.

On the other hand, some will swear by their brass. ANd for those, if they can afford what would be 5.5 monthly payments on my new to me minivan, they should go for it it it’s what they like.

Unless it is gold or other precious metals traded in ETFs available onthe market or in ingots, coinage etc, even if the price goes up, do NOT ever consider a niche hobby item to be worth more than scrap metal at best, It is only a good investement/hedge against inflation IF IF IF someone is willing to or has the where-with-all to pay for it and buy it during a recession/depression. ANd brass ain’t as precious as gold, silver titanium etc. Ive seen cheap brass lcoos sold on ebay as well as seen expensive ones not sell.

Converting brass to DCC can be a pain as I read it, as you have to isolate metal from metal, but I guess some plastic motors have to too. I would have to pay for it to be doen as I am not electronically inclined and can burn out a zippo cigarette lighter {and I don;t smoke}

Seems to me to spend $1000 {5.5 payments} on a loco I have to immediately take apart and “tweak” to get it to run, or to fiddle with frequently as some have complained they do with brass is not for me! Metal wears out and fatigues as we all know, even the metal parts in the plastic shells.

I will stick with my plastic shell trains thank you.

11

Why are details difficult to add to plastic or die cast locos? Many of us have been doing it for decades.

Sheldon

12

That one threw me too. If there’s an appliance that was on the prototype that wasn’t on your plastic model, between Cal Scale and others you can get it and add it.

–Randy

13

Well, you can´t solder a part to a plastic shell, can you?

[(-D][(-D][(-D]

14

Five minute epoxy is one of my favorite modeling tools - it sticks everything to everything and holds like solder holds metal.

I do a fair amount of soldering as well, like the brass trailing trucks on my Berk to Mikado conversions.

And I very SELDOM use ACC cement, that stuff is nasty.

Sheldon

15

Howard,

You are one of my favorite modelers of all time. I have the book that you wrote along with all 3 videos that Allen Keller produced about the Piermont Division. I love brass. I have Sunset’s Powhattan Arrow 5 car passenger set. I have 4 N&W cabooses by Division Point and am looking at Division Points new N&W passenger cars. I look at brass as works of limited addition art. I buy brass to run it not to have it sit on the shelf or in a box. By the way, how is the model of the N&W depot coming? I am working again on my layout (6 months off since the death of my father-in-law and my daughter’s illness. There is no hurry with respect to the depot.

16

I have always loved the looks and detail of brass locomotives. I have a list (in my mind, can’t write that done or the wife would find out) of brass locomotives that I would like to have. First, is the N&W Class A. That one I have. Next, in no particular order, N&W Class J, N&W Y6b, Southern Railway MS4, Southern Railway PS4 and C&O H8. I love articulated locomotives and am building a layout that will have minimum radius of 39 inches to run these “bad boys”.[(-D]

17

More about brass…

Try this one on! From 1973 to 1975 I owned a hobby shop here in Columbia, MD. In the window was an 11’x 6’ HO layout that operated almost non-stop for two years. The prime mover was a PFM PRR K-4 from a late 60’s run. I estimate that until retirement (now in one of my display cases) it ran flawlessly for over 6000 hours. The driver plating had long worn off, but it ran just fine…only I had to clean the drivers more often. It still runs great, but I wanted to keep it in original shape as I run only DCC now…and it deserves a well needed rest.

Try this with today’s plastic and die cast. I love handmade items of quality and brass models certainly fit the bill. There really is no need to compare brass and "other ". as it bolis down to what you like and can afford.

Craig…many thanks forthe fine words.

HZ

18

PFM made 2 versions of the Southern MS4 2-8-2’s as well as thousands of the PS4 4-6-2’s. As for the C&O 2-6-6-6 if you can find a Gem version it is a really beautiful engine, but they are “tough” to find. The Key versions or nice and are “sweet” runners but my personal preference is the PFM/Fuji version but only the 2nd run which is also factory painted. These things have tremendous detail as well as superb mechanisms and are more heavily built than the key versions, Japan VS Korea.

Check out one of the old PFM Y6b’s, although they are old they are quite highly detailed even by todays standards and are built like tanks so they’ll run forever. I have 3 of them and they have been in more or less continous use ever since the mid 1960’s. I beleive these were “Crown” models, not sure about that though although they have the extra details of a Crown model.

Mark

19

I HAD brass way back when Tenshodo was a big name. It ran pretty crappy in those days, and I finally unloaded it. Have looked at brass a couple of times since then and passed. My layout has a roster of over 300 diesels today, mostly high quality stuff, easy to maintain and detail if I want to. My interest lies in operations (Santa Fe style) and I like to be able to set up consists of diesels and watch grain trains roll by with 3 and 4 units pulling. I don’t like to tinker and repair and tweak.

Bottom line, at age 73, having been in trains since age 6 months, my first Lionel for Christmas, having seen the hobby develop and expand, I will stay with plastic for my motive power. It makes my checking account much happier.

Bob

20

Thank you for the information. While I have seen several Southern PS4’s by PFM for sale, I have never come across the Southern MS4. There is a model of the Southern MS4 by Presicion Scale that runs for about $1400. I have seen a few of the PFM Y6b’s for sale. I have one problem with the older brass locomotives. That is my ability to install new can motors or to regear them. For that, I need a lot of help.