What are the prevailing thoughts about brass locomotives versus plastic? Howard Zane seems to be a big brass fan because he feels that the brass will stand up to heavy use and hold their value. I know that once you start using an locomotive, it is like an automobile that goes down in value as soon as you drive it off of the lot. I recently purchased an A-B-A set of Southern FT’s by Division Point. I had Tsunami sound installed. They are unbelievable!! I have a Class A 2-6-6-4 by BTI and it works great too! Just wondering what opinions and/or experiences people have had with brass.
People usually buy brass because there is no prototypicaly copy of their locomotive of interest in plastic. This is true of a friend of mine modeling standard gauge Rio Grande in 1953. Nothing available in plastic, period. Very expensive AND a lot of the older brass takes a lot of tinkering to get to run smooth.
Hi,
Yes you have right, older brass need a lot of remotoring and new gearbox to run smoothly.
I would also say, just behind it’s right brass offer prototype which are very specific,however the price is too expensive today.
And more further, I am modeling in Nscale and feel disapointed whith the details on N scale brass loco’s when I see the plastic ones; just for N scale of course.
And I am very disapointed also, whith the Nscale brass running qualities; there is no doubt they are poor runner…for so much money. Of course some of us will say they are not produced to run but for collectors, but it’s not an answer I beleive. (I own a few N scale Key Imports; 5 in total)
It’s my taste of course…
Marc
Plastic has made some great strides in the past 10-20 years because of continuing improvements in injection molding and the quality of the machined molds themselves through CNC technology. There are some plastic offerings that can rival and surpass brass.
Plastic is more a large volume business; brass, a small volume. With that being the case, brass is therefore more often (but not necessarily) geared toward unique locomotives not found on many RRs and more expensive. And, because of the nature of brass, it is also more “durable” than plastic…and heavier. (Some plastic locomotives need to have additional weight added to improve tractive force.)
On the other hand, plastic locomotives are much easier to kitbash than brass and less expensive. So, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
I sure would very much enjoy purchasing a Division Point NYC L-2 Mohawk. However, it’s a bit too rich for my blood. I did see a DP steamer at a train show a couple of years ago. Simply stunning!
Tom
My collecting started in the late '60’s. Brass was preferred and affordable, while plastic was, well… plastic. The plastic examples of today are superior, in many respects to vintage, unmodified brass. Most of my early brass items have been updated, and the total investment per unit is still far less than off the shelf examples of today.
Were I beginning today, it’s doubtful any brass would be purchased. Specific designs can be had by modification of an existing plastic model.
[2c]
I wouldnt say all old Brass needs new gear boxes. I have remotored several older PFM steam engines and they ran smooth and silent with a new can motor and fresh rubber tube to the gear box. Yes some other brands need a totaly new drive system to be installed. Brass does have some heft to it, its easily weighted for better traction without the use of traction tires. But one much either have a deep wallet or enjoy tinkering with models to enjoy older brass engines. I myself enjoy taking a model and making it run as good as it looks. Cheers Mike
The majority of my locomotives are brass. Plastic locos are most frequently generic or almost invariably are for railroads I don’t emulate. It would be much cheaper and easier for me if I was in the market for any “choo, choo.” By the way, the last two plastic models of steam locomotives (costing several hundred dollars each) purchased were crud (wouldn’t run, wheels out of gauge, and so on) and designed to discourage internal access. I’ll never buy another plastic locomotive except from a hobby shop where it can be demonstrated to me in person the model will run.
Mark
At the time I purchased most of my prototypically accurate JNR steam and electric locomotives, they were available in brass - period. Forty years ago nobody was manufacturing plastic JNR locos - even the toys were galvanized steel.
Slightly more recently, I acquired some 2-8-2s with cast metal frames. The superstructures were still brass.
Much more recently a few really nice plastic JNR models have been manufactured - and sold at a price (in yen) that would have bought half a dozen of the same locos (in brass) when I was in the market. Add in the rate of exchange, and one D51 class 2-8-2 would cost me almost as much as I spent for my entire JNR steam roster!
Since I assembled most of my locos from kits, I took the time to get everything mechanically close to perfect. As a result, I have no canines among my steamers, even with the original open-frame motors that most of them still have.
On my layout there is no ‘versus.’ The locos are what they are - even the ones with cast metal bodies (a Tenshodo 0-6-0T and my fleet of diesel-hydraulics.) I’m happy with them as-is.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with locos bought in that time period)
Jim wrote:AND a lot of the older brass takes a lot of tinkering to get to run smooth.
Jim,I gotta disagree to a point since I came up through the brass age when the average modeler had several brass locomotives.
Steam locomotives from Tenshodo,United,PFM,Balboa and Westside, was smooth runners from the box and without a doubt the best locomotives of their day.
The brass diesels from Trains Inc,Hallmark and Alco wasn’t to bad from the box but,needed some tweaking.Their biggest problem was the howling,whining and grinding and very little could be done to silence these beast without a complete overhaul with new gears…
Still a lot of us young bucks was mighty proud of their brass diesels as they howl,grind and whine their way across the club’s layout.[(-D]
I suppose a man tried that today he would be thrown head first out of most clubs.[(-D]
Brass is an expensive way to go, and no doubt there are those who will want it no matter what. Good! That is what makes the world go 'round. My collection consists excluslvely of plastic HO, On30, and Fn3 locomotives, and I am pretty happy with them all. My HOn3 stable is almost all brass; and although I could get some pretty good money for a lot of it, I won’t either sell, or run them anymore, unless I get a bug to do so. For that matter, I have several guitars that are worth a lot of money, but won’t part with them right now.
Like I said, I don’t think it is any big deal if womeone wants brass. It is their money, after all, so who cares?
Rich
In many cases, the acquisition of a brass steam fleet is not a ‘snob’ issue, but an actual necessity.
I happen to model a steam-era railroad which currently has two plastic locomotives available–a Challenger and a USRA clone 2-8-8-2. The rest of my steam fleet is BY NECESSITY, brass.
I’ve been collecting brass replicas of Rio Grande standard gauge steam for some years now because that is the only way I can get a steam fleet of 2-8-0’s, 2-8-2’s 4-8-2’s and 2-10-2’s, to say nothing of Rio Grande articulateds (and they had a LOT of them, LOL!). The plastic Rio Grande steamers I have are a UP clone 3800 4-6-6-4 (which the Grande didn’t like and got rid of as soon as they could) and a USRA 2-8-8-2 (which was used mainly for helper service).
So: Brass it is. And yes, I ‘tinker’ with it. Brass is very forgiving to work on to get running well. Most brass RUNNERS ‘tinker’ with their locomotives–but then real railroads had to ‘tinker’ with steam as well to keep it in good running order. In that way, I suppose you’d say that brass runners are very close to Prototype.
Most of my brass has been bought used, and most of them for very reasonable prices–around the same prices as new plastic, in fact.
So for me, there’s no ‘versus’ between brass and plastic. If the railroad I model had more plastic steamers available, I’d probably go with them. But it doesn’t. And since I model Rio Grande instead of UP, PRR, N&W and NYC–which seems to have the largest plastic steam collections–I go brass.
And that sums it up for me.
Tom [:)]
We don’t actually disagree but feel free. I said a lot of older brass requires a good deal of tinkering and that is fact. I have had two good friends in Indiana. One was a Rio Grande modeler like Tom in this topic and had no choice but to buy brass to have correct steam. He had a good deal of work to get most of those to run well. Another friend in the same town was a big SP modeler and an optomitrist, and had a huge collection of brass diesels. Same thing, it was one disappointment after the next as many of his gorgeous brass diesels ran worse than Athearn coffee grinders. That was my up front and personal exposure to brass on a large quantity basis. That isn’t to say there aren’t some good runners out there, especially in more recent years, but anyone planning to get into brass (thats the original purpose of this topic) better be prepared up front to deal with issues. I just want to be sure he has been warned properly! 
RioGrande makes a very good point.
A lot of brass models are made in relatively small batches and pretty much individually constructed. I’ve had several instances where I’ve bought duplicates of certain wheel arrangements and two of the very same locomotive from the same manufacturer can be like night and day as far as running qualities are concerned.
For instance, I have two Key 1700 series Rio Grande Northerns that I bought used from Caboose Hobbies–over a period of about a year–that were probably manufactured and imported in the same batch. One ran like a jewel right out of the box. The other had to be worked on quite a bit, but is now just as good a runner as the other. Both of these locomotives had probably been in ‘collections’ and seldom if ever run, understand. But one was perfectly balanced and smooth, the other was off-balance and jerky and needed a great deal of drive-train adjustment.
More recent brass seems to be aimed at both the collector and runner. I have a PSC Rio Grande 1400 series 2-10-2 that I bought new several years ago that has been a spectacular runner–and puller–from the get-go. And I have heard nothing but praise for the new Sunset Northern Pacific Z-6 4-6-6-4. But again, these are ‘niche’ locomotives that would (or will) never be offered in plastic, but have the heft and detail and smooth running and pulling characteristics to justify the prices one pays for them.
And another thing: Anything goes wrong with the mechanism, it takes about 3-5 screws to lift the cab and boiler assembly off of the mecanism and cure whatever problems are ‘ailing’ the loco. With all due respect to today’s plastic locos, it’s very hard to do the same thing.[:P]
Brass steamers are not the answer to everyone–but until manufacturers start discovering the ‘niche’ railroads, it’s th
Someone get MMI or Blackstone off thier DRGW narrow gauge kick and do up a run of C&S Moguls like the #9 or the older #21 and 22 that I have in old PFM/United brass and I will gladly purchase some non brass power for my new layout. Its HOn3 narrow gauge and for good power, your only real option is brass unless you want a DRGW K class 2-8-2 or your willing to wait for the DRGW C-19’s and bash them into something else. Brass is definatly easier to access the drive system compared to whats currently on the market for other steam. Early brass diesels did run very loud. Some where quiet smooth, just noisy! Modern diesels from Division Point, OMI, Challenger among others. I try to stay with known good runners in older brass, PFM/United, Tenshodo, Akane ect. When I go to train shows, I have a portable throttle that uses 2 9vt batteries that I can choose either 9 or 18vt, forward or reverse with variable throttle. There are two leads with quick clips on them. I can clip one onto a piece of the engine and the other to the drawbar on a steam engine. This way I can see if the model will run, how well it wants or does run and use this as a tool in making an offer on a model. If it doenst run, I will offer much less than his asking price, if it runs nice and the price is fair, I dont even dicker with him. Brass isnt for everyone, for some due to modeling choice there isnt any other option, for others its the investment potential, although that seems to be waning in recent years with the economy and more affordable choices in RTR steam power. I will close by saying, at shows when I am running my trains, a fine tuned and smooth running brass engine gets many more comments and attention from show patrons, than any of the BLI or other nice RTR steam I have owned in the past. Most of those I sold as I got tired of pulling my hair out trying to take them appart to service the drive system when bearings started gettin
“Howard Zane seems to be a big brass fan because he feels that the brass will stand up to heavy use and hold their value.”
I would have to agree that there is nothing like brass. The majority of my roster are plastic locomotives but that not by choice but rather mere economics. Yes true plastic models are better then ever detail wise as well as mechanical and electronics no question but they are still a ways behind brass when it comes to sheer craftsmanship and detailing. I am speaking of the older Japanese models as I have no experience with the later ones coming out of Korea. From my own experience for the most part all of the brass locomotives I’ve ever seen are far better pullers then their plastic counterparts.
" I know that once you start using an locomotive, it is like an automobile that goes down in value as soon as you drive it off of the lot."
I can’t agree with this statement as there are many different types of train enthusiasts as there are many different types of people in the car hobby. I’ve got a friend/customer who owns several high dollar original muscle cars and a few collector classics. 1966 A/C Cobra a1971 Hemi Cuda, and a 1967 427 Corvette Convertible and he drives them all as often as he can, To quote him cars were meant to be driven. His equipment is driven not abused. Same goes for brass trains yes some may say like cars if you put them away in some sealed garage and look at them like a toy in a snow globe it will maintain but as he feels and so do I life is too short not to enjoy life and what is has to offer. If you go out and spend $4500.00 on a brass locomotive and want to play trains with it thats strictly up to you. If you want to jump in your million dollar collector car to go buy that train well then that also up to you. It’s all about what give you the most joy and satisfaction. I watched a video about the guy who before he passed away had the largest most expensive collection of Lionel trains. He even
I cannot agree. I am involved with “collector” type automobiles and there is a phrase one keeps in mind when thoughts of depreciation come along:
DRIVE THEM LIKE THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
The same can be said for our locomotives, etc.
A few random thoughts:
I have mostly “plastic” steam locos, but they all contain lots of metal and a number of them have die cast boilers (9 Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains for example) and pull very well without traction tires.
That first statement aside, I have no problem with traction tires (or BullFrogSnot) and many brass locos I have seen/handled over the years needed tons of weight added before they would pull anything.
Nothing about this hobby, which I have been in for 40 years and love dearly, would prompt me to spend $1,000 (or its inflation ajusted equal in any time past) on one locomotive. Guess what, I don’t own much brass.
I have one “true” brass loco, a PFM USRA light Pacific, runs nice - now has a Bachmann tender. Only $230 invested, including the tender.
And one “almost brass” (die cast boiler) Oriental Limited Powerhouse USRA light Pacific, also runs nice, also now sports a Bachmann tender. Only $130 invested.
To those of you willing to spend what it takes, good for you. And I do understand about stuff that is only available in brass. Nice USRA light Pacifics are only available in brass - does that make any sense?
For me, there is no interest in collecting, or in future value. It is my unwavering plan to die owning all these model trains. after that, who cares?
AND to run the wheels off them between then and now.
For me, I’m much happier to have those 9 USRA Heavy Mountains (average purchase price $110) to fill out the whole schedule and make the engine terminal look realistic, than to have one or two “hand crafted” wonders for the same investment. My Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountains run as good as any piece of brass I have ever seen in the last 40 years.
Nothing wrong with brass, much of it is very nice, I just don’t need or want it for the
You almost need to qualify which brass we are taking about. Older brass or current items within the last couple of years. Older brass many times did need to be weighted a bit more, maybe a bit of balance adjustment to keep the bulk of the weight centered over the drivers and counteract the weight of the motor at the rear. Newer brass seems to come pretty well weighted and balanced right out of the box. That being said, the “feel” of my older PFM imports, feel much more duarble to the touch vs the newer stuff from Korea. Most of that seems to be the fact that new brass are really rolling museum pieces in the detail dept. No matter what modeling medium, that equates some fragility to the model. The older imports from PFM, Akane, Tenshodo, ect where beautifully detailed, but not so much to be fragile to the average layout operator. PFM struck a balance between detail, operating quality and the price the modeler would have to pay for each model. Models were produced in the 500-5000 piece count if you take the total production over several years. This kept prices down to a resonable level that most modelers could afford one if they so desired. Thats not so much the case with todays brass, total production runs for a certain road name might not reach 25 pieces total, or atleast far less that years ago. This drives up the price, far fewer pieces to recoup costs of production. Even the plastic engine market has become more like the brass market. Limited production runs tied to preorders from modelers, with very few extras after that point. Limited avaiablity of parts to fix broken ones after a year or two, unless a new production run of models is produced. Up till very recently, if you needed a part for a PFM brass import, a quick phone call could many times locate a part, and for models not produced in years. Other than the older Bowser kit built engines on our club layout, older
Yes I do believe.
I’ve never been weathy enough to get really into brass - and from all I have observed and read -it really is a mixed bag. Only brass I ever owned was a Kumata CZ passenger set, now replaced with BLI CZ cars and I still own 6 brass cabooses. Its all plastic otherwise!