Warning I’m frustrated with Broadway Limited Locomotives and their silly MULTI-DECODER setup. But I’ve also included some suggestions for resolving the issues.
First the good:
My wife got me some of those Broadway Limited “Blueline” locomotives for Christmas…
On the one hand they are REALLY nice. They look great, pull great, 30+ cars up a 1.5% incline! They SOUND absolutely fantastic!!! BLI got that part REALLY REALLY right! I LOVE them. I wouldn’t be so upset about the next part if I didn’t like all this about them. I’d just skip them entirely and stay with the Proto2K’s…
Then the bad:
On the other hand they can be a royal pain-in-the-behind too. Anybody who’s ever tried to program the decoders in the thing knows EXACTLY what I’m talking about. It all works pretty good until something happens to mess up the factory programming – and then they get all hosed up. And getting them UN-hosed is NOT FUN. [edited by selector]
Then the ugly:
BLI claims they do the dual-decoder thing to “save money” but I question how much they’re really saving when the retail price for the typical decoder that they themselves recommend is only around $20 bucks or so. (That means the wholesale cost is actually lower-- or if they made their own decoder, it could be even cheaper still)
So what does it actually take to make the typical DCC motor decoder anyway?
The typical DCC motor decoder is a pretty cheap rig. Its comprised of a very small, simple (often one-sided) circuit board, so the copper and phenolic cost is exceptionally small. There are very few holes to drill (som
O.K. I just bought an A/B pair of BLI F7s, installed DH123s in the A and B units-- pretty simple actuallty, remove front coupler on the A, lift body off, plug-in the 123, put body back on, remount coupler and go. Both ran fine at factory defaults, and sounded pretty cool. Off they went to the paint shop.
A will come back as #1537 and when I go to change its address will all heck break loose? If I want to consist them as per prototype and set B as #1537 as well, does everything blow-up?
I want to stress heavily that I LOVE my BLI locos-- I have (2) SD-9’s, (1) SD-7 and (1) F7 (so far). Their detailing is fantastic. I put them side-by-side with the Proto-2000 versions and they look virtually identical. They sound terrific, BLI has a full range of really good sounds and its so cool to listen to them sitting there popping off or filling air resevoirs and such-- and when you have several of them sitting there together (tweaked so the frequency of each is shifted a little so they have their own sound)-- you just can’t beat that (unless you’re ACTUALLY at the train station I suppose… They pull like a champ-- even just one loco pulls lots of cars up hills no less, so no complaints on any of those fronts, those are all major pluses.
The drawback that I have (and that LOTS of others have discovered-- just do a quick google and you’ll see what I mean) is that if anything goes awry and the decoders “get lost” it can be (no, scratch that, it IS) a real pain in the neck to get them back. BLI’s OWN instructions say you have to take the SHELL off the loco to REMOVE the motor decoder so you can reset the sound decoder. Then they recommend programming the motor controller in a SPARE locomotive.
It might not seem like such a problem to me if the locomotives WEREN’T so nice. If they weren’t so well detailed and so nicely featured. (And in truth, I’ve disassembled mine four or five times each now and nothing has fatally broken off, but that’s my biggest worry). But, to coin a phrase, that’s hardly a way to run a railroad! To say nothing of having a custom paint job or weathering chalks or anything like that. I haven’t had time yet to weather mine, but I’ll be even more annoyed if I have to disassemble them again after that.
Whether or not it will be a huge problem for you depends on how you use them. My guess is that you will have to disassemble the loco at LEAST one time to set it up even if you use Joe Fugate’s method. And if you never have a problem after that then you’ll be
I know what you are going through. I have a BLI sd-9 and just got it back from the BLI repair center after amonth and the stupid thing still doesn"t want to run. If you run in dcc the sound works but it won’t move and if I put on a test track in dc the engine moves but no sound. I think I’ll just run it without a shell just to save time on working on it. As a last resort I’m going to try a different decoder when my hobbyshop gets it in. Good luck with your struggle and maybe someone at BLI will get the message.
Fellas, you will notice that I have edited content in at least one of your posts. I know this is a touchy subject for you, and with good reason (my opinion), but the forum rules expressly forbid foul language or its common representations in symbols.
I have discovered that it IS I think possible to rescue a screwed up BLI loco. I don’t know if it will work on any DCC system or not. I have an NCE PowerhousePro with recently updated EPROM. So its capable of programming in both “Paged Mode” and “Direct Mode”. CV readback doesn’t always work-- but that depends on which decoder you’re talking to.
It turns out that since the BLI sound decoder is programmed via Direct Mode and the Digitrax Motor Decoder (what I have installed) is programmed via Paged Mode they don’t really seem to interfere with each other much if you do it just right.
I have NOT yet worked out the exact sequence of steps necessary to do it all-- thus far I’m going largely by intuition and feel. Its likely that there are multiple ways they can get weirded-out and that’s why it seems so hard to get them under control again-- there isn’t a one-size-fits-all answer. You have to know (or guess) at what the likely problem(s) could be and work out a series of successively more dramatic rescue ops until you hit upon the one that works. I don’t know if its possible for the locos to get completely weirded out such that nothing would work short of pulling the decoder from the loco and starting over. I know that I’ve resorted to that several times just because I was frustrated. But I do know it has sometimes taken me quite a while to work out how to get them going again.
Here are some of the things that I do that seem to work (re-read the above paragraph and keep it in mind!
I start by trying to get the sound decoder under control first since that seems easiest, plus it gives a nice satisfying BEEP when it starts working. I put it on the programming track and attempt to communicate with it in direct mode. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t (as gauged by whether or not its able to read back the CV values).
When it cannot read back the values and you’re pretty sure you’re using the right mode (i.e. Paged or Direct-- Direct for talking to the sound contro
Broadway has corrected the issue and now call the new line Paragon 2 which has both motor and sound decoder built in. I have an AC6000 and all is fine. One easier way to work with the Blueline issue (I have 3 of them) is to put the motor decoder into another engine and program it there then place it back into the Blueline. I’ve seen people have luck with the CV15 and CV16 locks but it’s a pain. The new paragons add a bunch of sound functions and a few motor features as well, including back emf.
So what, they’re leaving all the folks that plunked down their cold-hard cash standing out in the cold?
Those things aren’t cheap-- if that’s all the more they think of their customers I reckon I don’t need all those other locos I wanted to buy from them. Proto 2000 will work just fine.
Do they have any plans to correct the problems they’ve already created???
To tell the truth I love my Blueline steamers. I have 2 M1 and 2 J1. The problem most people are having with programing the dual decoders is they are either instaling a decoder that has function CVs that conflict with CVs on the Blueline board. Or they are locking the decoders like it said in the manual and trying to consist with CV19 thats locked out. Another problem is people are making it harder than it has to be.
Dual decoders have been around for a very long time. How many modelers have an old soundtraxx decoder with a separate motor and light decoder. How about a tri decoder locomotive? I have done one. Soundtraxx DSD, Lenz motor decoder and TCS FL2 all in the same loco.
DCC is not hard and the systems and decoders do not think and have brains. Just like your computer they are just simple inputs and outputs. Select a decoder that programs on the main. Instal it. set it on the track and program together. Do not lock and fool with the 2 digit address. Set CV29 =34. Address the decoders using CV17 and 18 exit programing and play. If you want try programing on the program track.
Bash all you want. The money saved in the Bluelines is not yours. With all the sue happy companies doing DCC. BLI came out with Blueline to make sound decoders that the other companies can not drag to court over. After the MTH deal they could not aford another trip to the bench.
I just wish they would come out with some more and smaller PRR steamers in Blueline.
Just a little hint. TCS T1 decoders work great in the steamers and the NCE Power cab can read and write CVs on the program track.
Who makes the TCS T1 decoder and what is the approx cost?
BTW, I don’t have problem reading/writing the MOTOR decoder CV’s either on main or programming track. Its the sound decoder. And I have the very latest EPROM for the NCE, I just got it and installed it less than two weeks ago.
They’re not leaving anyone out in the cold. It does take some more work to learn how to work with dual decoders. When just running a single engine there is almost never a problem. If you have a consist you can always simply program both engines to the same address. You have noted that the engines run great. They’re some of the best runners out there, and the sound is top notch as well. If you don’t want to deal with setting them up then you have several great options. Atlas and Athearn have great runners that have sound and DCC installed. I’m sure there are others just as good but I don’t have experience with them. If you like Proto2000 then go with it Every brand is always going to have it’s little things to deal with. Just browse the internet and in most cases you’ll find a solution.
As far as BLI, PCM and there Blue Line there quality control sure seem to be lacking. I will not go in to great detail, but again I am sending back two PCM Steam engines ($1200.00 list) for the second time. Have sent back a BLI Heavy Mike last year and is fine for now, repaired a BLI M1A three times my self center gears was dry as a bone the first time.
I have had 3 Blue Line GE AC 6000’s. First one ate it Digitrax Decoder, it was replaced by my LHS and runs fine. Second one came from a inter net hobby shop. It ate the LED’s and lost power pick up from rear trucks, sent it back for repairs. He gave up on it and sent me a new one. Then the replacement lost it’s LED head light, BLI did send me a new wrong one, need to contact them about that when I get new Ra’s on the PCM’s.
While I was talking with Matt from BLI I did ask why there Blue Line was so affordable? It is not due to the electronic like we would think! They are affordable because they are reusing there castings. That is why for a low end dollar wise engine they look so good. They used the same casting my PCM $600.00 Big Boy came from to make the $300.00 Blue Line Big Boy.
Far as using a spare engine to set the motor decoder, now that is a good idea. Should not have to, but will make it simpler for me. To me a spare is anything that the shell comes off easy (there AC 6000 is not one of them) and not pulling a train.
I might have a new Blue Line Alligator coming! Seems there web site must uses dual decoders![:D] I tried to pay for one 3 times last night, it was declined 3 times? It said I did not have all the information I needed. Called and the answering services said it was because my CC has my middle name, but no block for it on there site for it. I was told Joe would call me today and get it taken care of, no call. Log in to my bank and I was charged for a engine. Went
Sorry to hear about your loco and bank troubles. Hopefully all that will work out the right way.
As far as using the spare loco-- that’s where I have a problem with all this. I can deal with the dual decoder programming. I think the way its done is pretty lame but I can deal with it. What I think IS bad form though is building it in such a way that the proscribed procedure is to remove the locomotive shell.
In reading through the various replies here I’m seeing two camps–
(A) people who are having similar problems with BLI and have their own war stories to tell.
(B) people who have not had the problems with BLI or have developed workarounds to deal with the issues.
I am mostly fine with the workarounds. I’ll figure it out or stumble across the methods and they’ll work for me too I’m sure.
I think what I’m mostly annoyed at is this is a KNOWN issue. And from what you’re telling me, it precedes BLI so they really could have developed a better way of dealing with the situation.
My personal opinion is that its sloppy engineering to have to re-open the shell every time the decoder runs away. If it only happens once in a blue moon, that MIGHT be a different story. But in MY experience I’ve had all four locos OFF the track more than ON the track because of these issues. I have had to disassemble them repeatedly just to get at the stupid decoders.
I have not had to disassemble any other locomotive in my roster EVER after the initial decoder installation. Admittedly these are my first sound-equipped locos, but removing the shell as a FIRST level of remediation is just not a good approach. In MY opinion of course. Everyone is entitled to one of those.
I welcome workaround methods. Particularly those that do not require removing the shell.
Would you elaborate on this? I’d like to learn how to use them effectively so I can quit belly-achin and have some fun.
I wondered if something like that was closer to the real truth. All that should be by the wayside now right? The patent nonsense has been worked out and invalidated? So now companies are in the clear for putting out integrated decoders now? Or is there still some other angle?
BTW, from the NMRA’s own web site regarding DCC Decoder conformance, I call your attention to the principle specifications outlined for the implementation of Multiple-Decoder systems:
DCC users sometimes want to install more than one decoder in a single locomotive. Common cases are: using separate decoders for motor control and sound generation, and also additional function only decoders. Because these decoders often need to have their CVs adjusted separately, a mechanism is needed to communicate with only one of multiple decoders installed in a locomotive shell, at a time. As a common workaround, it is possible to have several decoders at different CV1 or CV17/18 addresses, but this is cumbersome to operate and is problematic with service mode programming.
This Lock mechanism must be able to:
Do service-mode read and write from a specific decoder, with no need to disconnect other decoders electrically.
Discover the type of decoder(s) present inside a locomotive, without disassembly, and despite multiple decoders being present.
Work with existing DCC systems without modification