I recently posted a topic concerning the HO scale Challenger. I’ve been looking around at some other engines and I’ve found a few more that I’d like to ask about. They are all 4-8-4 engines made by BLI:
N&W Class J
ATSF 4-8-4 Northern
NYC Niagara 4-8-4
My main concern (as usual) is their ability to run on 22" curves. Now I realize that BLI posts on their website that all of their 4-8-4 engines have a minimum radius of 22" (with the exception of the Class J, which has a minimum radius of 18"). I owned 2 Bachmann engines (Berkshire and a Class J). Both claimed that they could run on 22" curves. Neither of them could. I got a ton of derailments and the driving wheels were constantly grinding on the rails as they took the turns.
Does anyone have an information on these engines? I may be making a purchase/downpayment on one today and I’d like to find out more about them before committing. Thanks in advance for any comments, suggestions, pictures, and/or videos.
I have one of the BLI “Blueline” Niagaras that came out a few years ago. I can’t speak for your R22" curves but it will negotiate my R22" curves just fine. The new Paragon2 Niagaras should be exactly the same.
My layout is all Bachmann EZ Track. I saw a review on Youtube of a different manufacturer’s Niagara (I can’t remember which one. I think it was Bachmann’s). The review showed the Niagara engine derailing on 22" EZ Track curves. Now granted, I couldn’t actually tell if the curves were really 22" or not, but they looked like it. That’s all I’m worried about. The mainlines on my 5x9 layout are all 22" curves so I really want a BLI 4-8-4 that can run on them without any problems.
I have a BLI 4-8-2 Mohawk that will negotiate my R22" curves. My BLI Hudsons (w/79" drivers), OTOH, don’t like the R22" curves as much. It’s primarily at some contrary curves (separated by a straight section of track) where they complain the most.
In either case, the 4-8-2 and the 4-8-4 will grind a little on R22"s…
As a general rule, and it applies to all human pursuits, the closer you get to engineered limits, the real ones (and not the stated claims on packaging), the higher the probability of compounded errors contributing to failures or mistakes. The closer you get to the minimum curvature specificed by the manufacturer, the higher number of derailments you are likely to experience, particularly if you run a passenger train at scale limited speeds, say 60 mph and on up to the federal maximum permitted, 79 mph. It may not be the locomotive by itself, or it may not be the way you lay your track, especially consistent radius curves, but you put them together and you get a compounding effect between them.
All that to mean, if you can find another two inches in radius, or a non-eight-drivered locomotive that was designed for high passenger or freight speeds (75 scale inches and larger), you would be much better off. I know that the Bachmann Spectrum Decapod, a 2-10- 0, but a freight engine not meant for speeds above about 50 mph, can negotiate 18" curves relatively easily, but that’s because those ten drivers are small and close together. The Spectrum J Class 4-8-4 is good on 22" curves I am told, but that engine is hit-and-miss on how well they run…unfortunately. There are lots of them around still new, though, and Bachmann’s warranty for repair or exchange is peerless in the hobby…excellent.
You would want a Pacific Class 4-6-2, one of which BLI has recently offered for the first time since their own very nice all-metal Pennsy K4s released about nine years ago, and Bachmann’s Spectrum line Pennsy K4s is a good model from what I have read.
Oh no! The engine I was going to go to if I couldn’t find a Challenger or a 4-8-4 was a Hudson I really thought that it’d be able to handle the 18" and 22" curves since it only had 6 wheels in the middle. That’s really upsetting to hear.
Thanks for your reply on this post (and for your replies on other posts on here).
I recently purchased the BLI 4-6-2 Pacific. It is an AMAZING engine, to say the least. I just want a larger engine to stand as the “head” of my fleet of engines. I have a Bachmann Berkshire, but it has problems on my 22" curves and it can’t pull nearly as much as my BLI Pacific does without slipping on the tracks.
I have considered going up on my mainline curves to 24" or 28" to help engines handle them better, but I’m worried about two things: the cost of it and the changes I’d have to make to my layout to accommodate those changes to the curves. My turnouts are placed in specific locations and I’m afraid that I’d have to move or remove them to make the engines work right.
If the curves on your layout all go in the same direction - either traveling CW or CCW, you should be fine. However, if your curves change direction (i.e. create an “S”) on any part of your layout, the larger drivers (at least on my layout) may not like them.
I have two Trix and a BLI 2-8-2 Mike that has no problems with R22" or R18". So, 8-driver locomotives can handle those curves. It just depends on 1) the size of the drivers, 2) the configuration of the track, and 3) how bullet-proof your track work is against derailments.
I don’t know this for certain, but it looks like the Mike’s drivers are smaller than the 4-8-4’s that I’m looking at getting. That may be why the Mike runs well on those curves. But like I said, I’m not really sure if that’s the case.
None of my curves go from one curve into an opposite facing curve. There are a couple of my 18" curves that go into straight track and then into an opposite facing curve, but those are only on my side tracks…not on the mainlines.
“particularly if you run a passenger train at scale limited speeds, say 60 mph and on up to the federal maximum permitted, 79 mph.”
Is that a Canada thing?, because they run faster than that here. Our section of the North East Corridor is FRA Class 5 trackage fro the most part - 90 MPH. Much of US 40 is right along the tracks, and I assure you the Acela is going faster than 79 MPH.
Just for a little clarification…The main 4-8-4 that I’m looking at is the BLI J Class that they just released. I’ve seen a few youtube videos posted of it. This video is one in particular…
The track is EZ Track in this video and the curves look like they could be as small as 18", but look closer to 22". BLI claims that the recommended minimum radius for these engines is 18". But as I said, I tried out another version (Spectrum???) of the J Class that was terrible on 22" curves.
You are correct that the Mike drivers are smaller than the Northern/Niagaras. The USRA Mikes had 63" drivers and the 4-8-4s had 75" drivers; both smaller than the 4-6-4 Hudsons 79" drivers. And, yes - that’s one of the reasons the Mikes run better on those smaller curves. The other reason would be that - with the smaller drivers - there is a shorter overall wheel base to the frame.
If you’re planning on spending $400 for a new steam engine, then why can’t you redo your mainline curves?
Save yourself the trouble, and get at least 24" min radius curves so you don’t have to worry about what steam locomotives might, or might not work for you.
Having the Bachmann EZ track, I assume its not permanently in place and should be easy enough to do?
I’m going in to look at a J Class 4-8-4 by BLI tomorrow. The closest hobby store to my house is 2 1/2 hours away, so I’m kind of on edge about buying it. I may just need to upgrade my mainline curves to the 24". It seems like most of the videos I watch have 24" (when using Bachmann EZ Track). If I upgrade the mainlines to 26" on the outer mainline and keep the 22" on the inner mainline then I could run most larger engines on my outer mainline…but the larger engines still would have problems on the inner mainlines. That would cost me around $90 from my local hobby store ($19.99/pack).
With my layout being 5x9, I could stretch the limits on it and make the outer mainline be 28" radius curves and the inner mainline be 26" curves…that would cost over $150 to do, but then I could run practically anything on any of my mainline tracks. It would also stretch my layout nearly to it’s max on the edges, leaving around 2 inches of spare room on each side of the tracks.
It’s a huge cost to expand it all. I’d like to keep my layout the same for cost reasons, that’s why I’m trying to find out if these engines can handle my curves.
My rationale is: Go with the biggest curves you can get away with. I have a modest 4 x 8 so R22" is the maximum. If I could go bigger I would in a heartbeat.
If you can go R26" or R28", you won’t regret it. Your locomotives will run smoother and, if you run passenger service on your layout, the cars will both look and operate better.
Does Bachmann even produce E-Z track in those radii? I know that they make R24" in the sectional track. I’ve never seen any sectional track larger than that though.
Yes, EZ Track comes in 24", 26", 28" and some over 30". I have a limited budget for such an expensive hobby. Replacing my 22" curves on the mainlines with 28" on the outer mainline and 26" on the inner mainline would cost over $150 to do…which is more than half of what I have to spend on the J Class (which is selling for $350 at my local hobby shop; made by BLI).
I guess I just want a good “larger” engine that I can use on my current layout. But it seems as if I will need to upgrade my curves to accommodate any engines larger than say, a 4-6-2.
I guess I missed this post of yours. That Mohawk looks pretty nice. I’m guessing it’s been retired from BLI’s line of engines because I can’t find it anywhere. It’s a beautiful engine. I’d be interested in buying one if they got re-released.
Far as a Class J BLI engine taking 18 inch turns my did. Reason I sold it was because I did not have a advances DCC system (using Tom’s old E-Z Command) and hated the sound. Mine was the old Paragon engine but I am 99% sure they used the same tooling and just changed decoder.
Big Steam that track great, look for a Y6 B by BLI or PCM. While the Y6 B is not huge it is a little bigger than the class J.
Steam engines are really picky about how the track is laid! But if all is even and have the correct alignment they can make tighter turns.
The BLI L-4a Mohawks are very nice. (One of their Brass-Hybrid series.) I checked earlier and there weren’t any available on eBay. Since they are OOP (out of production), the “gougers” generally want top dollar for them - i.e. $450 and up.
MTH makes an L-3 and L-4 Mohawk that runs very well. However, I’m not all that keen on MTH’s proprietary DCS decoders because MTH limits the number of CVs (configuration variables) that you can adjust with either a DC or DCC system. You have to have one of their DCS throttles in order to have full access. [:(] And the MTH Mohawk doesn’t look as nice as the BLI version.
BLI has been re-releasing a lot of their prior runs lately with their Paragon2 decoders. Maybe they will eventually do the same with the Mohawks. The first (and only) run came with QSI decoders. I would love to pick up an additional Mohawk so I could double-head them. [8D]
anoles, maybe it might be worth thinking seriously about investing in larger radii curves first before plunking down $$$ for a larger loco. You can then save up for one of the larger 8
I really thought that it’d be able to handle the 18" and 22" curves since it only had 6 wheels in the middle. That’s really upsetting to hear.
