If it runs in the street with no additional infrastucture it is not BRT it is just a bus.
That’s not correct. BRT comes in a variety of flavors.
You don’t live in Austin, so you don’t know what is planned for our fair city. And my guess is that you have not been to many other cities to see what they serve up. Most of us haven’t.
Since retiring I have traveled widely throughout the United States. Two things have impressed me. The U.S. is a very large country. And it is very diverse. What might work in one city does not necessarily mean that it would work everywhere. Based on my observations, as well as readings, BRT is a good solution for many communities.
Oh, by the way, you failed to answer any of the questions that I posed. You know! The basis of your market survey regarding people not riding BRT or buses in general because they favor light rail. What is the basis for this conclusion?
As I recall, Sam, Shirley DeLibero came to Dallas and saw to it that the light rail got built. Before she worked in Dallas she was Executive Director of New Jersey Transit. She is remembered for giving large raises to top management officials for no particular reason.
To have close to 8000 passengers per hour for bus rapid transit, it is necessary to double the lanes at stops, so that one bus can pass another. 8000 passengers per hour is a general figure and particular circumstances can alter it. For example, does an existing railroad or disused highway or what ever already exist? If so, even for just part of the distance, the figure can be lowered for good economics for LRT. Is there no way to fit a right of way wide enough for bus rapid transit in the landscape, urbanscape, but a narrower right of way suitable for rail vehicles can be fitted. If so, then it is no longer a comparison between LRT and BRT, but between LRT and buses on a city street. Then the figure drops to something like 2500 passenger per hour, a bus every three minutes. Cannot even fit a lane for LRT through the city? OK, a streetcar line in mixed traffic can also handle an articulated train every three minutes and can handle 200 passengers in each vehicle, for 4,000 passengers per hour in one lane.
The Pittsburgh eastside bus BRT has the pull-off lanes at bus stops. I don’t know what California does.
It is possible to design a guided bus system, and there are such in Europe, where BRT lanes can be as narrow as LRT lanes. And such a bus can use normal steering when off the BRT line.
Well, yes, Sam. BRT does have a variety of flavors. Yes, you can put up special bus shelters and paint buses special colors and given them traffic controls so the lights will stay green for them. But if they run on city streets they will have to share the streets with traffic. When the streets are gridlocked the buses, which are a lot bigger than cars, will be gridlocked too. Even special bus lanes will get backed up with a lot of other buses going on other routes. But what you will not have is rapid transit. Anyone who says that this is rapid transit is trying to fool all of the people all of the time.
Of course you can build dedicated bus ways and have true bus rapid transit. But I still ask where the big cost savings is if you have dedicated busways and have to buy the land and pave the streets just for the busways.
John
The point that I have apparently not been able to get across is that there are numerous places in the United States where BRT can operate on existing roadways, with some technological improvements, and not be mired in gridlock. The proposed route in Austin, TX, is not encumbered by gridlock. RBT is the best solution according to the professional transport planners.
The cost of the proposed RBT in Austin is $1.3 million per mile. The cost to build a light rail system is $48 to $50 million a mile. One does not even need to do the math to understand that the BRT is a much better alternative than laying a light rail line along Lamar Blvd. in Austin. Or Preston Road in Dallas. There is no way that the operating cost spread between the light rail and the BRT will recapture the capital cost differentials. The math does not work.
This year I have traveled to San Diego, Los Angeles, Santa Barbara, San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, New York City, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Jacksonville, Miami, Key West, and New Orleans. Plus numerous tr
Sam,
I did some net surfing about Austin and I learned that that not all Austin citizens agree with you. However, certainly some do agree with you. I think your work is to persuade your fellow citizens of your position. What I think here in New Jersey don’t make no nevermind. Since putting buses on existing streets is a lot cheaper than building a dedicated right of way I think your position will most likely prevail.
John
Who are these citizens? Are they transportation planners? Have you ever been to Austin? If the answer is yes, when?
It has nothing to do with my position. Capital Metro planners have decided that BRT is the best solution for the planned application. San Antonio has decided that buses, including BRT, are the best solution for its current needs, although they may opt for light rail 20 to 30 years from now.
No, Sam. I’ve never been to Austin. And I cannot give you the names of people who disagree with you. But certainly you don’t believe that everyone in Austin agrees with you, or at least I hope you don’t. All I am saying is that there are people in Austin who disagree with you. I certainly would not deny that there are people in New Jersey who disagree with me. And remember, this is America. We all have opinions on just about everything. People who are not transportation planners have opinions about transportation. Most of all, I don’t challenge your position. You live in Austin, clearly you are intelligent and you have well thought out views. But there is no disrespect to you in saying that there are people in Austin who disagree with you.
Sort of like, “If it runs in the street with no additional infrastucture it is not Light Rail it is just a trolley car.”?
Oh, I don’t know…It depends a lot on the bus. An MCI D4500 rides as well as most light rail lines I’ve ridden - as long as you sit forward of the rear axles.
Yes.
Light rail cannot run in the street with no additional infrastructure. It requires track and an electric source. That said, I do not believe that rail of any kind belongs in the street. The dedicated right of way is one of rail’s biggest advantages.
To add to your point, Dave, economic development around stations is one thing that rail transit is all about and always has been all about.
I also agree that a dedicated right of way is the only way that makes sense for any kind of rapid transit. Even if a street has a low enough volume of traffic to allow mass transit to move at a reasonable speed we know that over time that street will attract more traffic and any speed advantage of mass transit will be lost. Also, if we start with a street system and later seek to move it to a dedicated right of way over time land costs will have gone up adding to the expense of the system. It isn’t exactly rocket science to understand the principle of “Do it right the first time.”
Dave; will the blue line be able to handle this additional traffic ? How is the planning going for making that route 3 unit capable ? Has consideration been made to make some trips not cover the full route ? Are more cars going to be ordered for the blue line ?
CATS has already ordered 22 additional SR-70s.
I’m not positive, but I believe lengthening the platforms is built into the Blue Line Extension project.
A full-funding grant agreement providing $580m towards the cost of extending Charlotte’s LYNX Blue line was announced by Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff on October 16.
Initially the promoters for the Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) light rail system envisioned an under ground transit tunnel through downtown Dallas. In fact, they envisioned two routes; one underground and one on a separate transit-way. That’s about as separate as it gets. Until they looked at the price tag! They decided that a street level transit way, partially dedicated to light rail, was more practicable. And affordable!
Initially the promotors of DART’s rail program wanted to use heavy rail, e.g. Atlanta’s MARTA, until they found out that the cost would be substantially greater than light rail. When they realized that it would shave just 2.5 minutes off the running time from Forest Lane to downtown Dallas, a distance of approximately 10.5 miles, they decided on the light rail because it was affordable.
Two or three years ago DART commissioned a highly regarded economics professor at the University of North Texas to evaluate the impact of DART’s light rail on economic development around the light rail stations. He was able to point to the development of apartments and retail shops at Mockingbird Station and apartments in downtown Plano. That’s just two stations, although additional apartments are being built along the Green line near Southwestern Medical Center.
What he did not say is that the most impressive developments in the Dallas area have taken place far from the light rail stations, i.e. Uptown Dallas, Addison, Los Colinas, etc. How do I know? I lived in Uptown for five years. I could walk downtown quicker than back track on a bus to catch the light rail at City Place. Furthermore, he overlooked the fact that in Austin, San Antonio, El Paso, etc. there has been significant development, due in large part to the growth of Texas, and none of these communities have light rail.
Texas has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 25 years. People need places to live, work, shop, etc. And developers have responded with apartments, townhouses
Now the APTA announces that the 1st 3 quarters of this year that LRT ridership increased the most of all modes (others heavy rail & bus )
You are correct, Streak. Over all ridership has increased for the last 7 consecutive quarters. Light rail has the largest increase followed by heavy rail and then by bus. This could be the beginning of a trent toward more and more transit use.
Here is a link: http://www.apta.com/mediacenter/pressreleases/2012/Pages/121210.aspx
John