I have been buying some Great Northern rolling stock and locos.
I would like to put together a heavy weight Empire Builder consist.
Here is what I have.
EMD F7A & B
REA car
Storage mail car
RPO car
New York car (dining car???)
3 Coach cars
Would these pieces go together in the same time period?
And how many cars would be in a consist?
Many thanks. [:D]
Lee
Lee,
The heavyweight EB was painted in the standard ‘Pullman’ green. The 1947 lightweight train that replaced it was the first passenger cars painted in the classic orange/green paint scheme. The F7’s did not arrive until 1949. The Athearn cars you have are lettered ‘Great Northern’ as they are general pool cars. The EB had ‘Empire Builder’ on the letter board(other than the mail.express cars).
Your train is a good example of the local from the 50’s. The GN had lots of mail contracts(They were known as the ‘Postman of the Northwest’), That car lettered ‘New York’ is indeed a dining car. Since any version of the EB would be a trans-con train, it would need sleepers as well, and would usually run 10-12 cars in length. Your train has that GN local appearance…
Jim
Gidday Lee, Hope these help…
http://www.trainweb.org/fredatsf/eb55.htm
http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/index2.htm?GNEEmpireBuilderConsists.htm
http://www.gngoat.org/1951_builder.htm
http://www.gnrhs.org/75th_anniversary.htm
Cheers,the Bear.
Thanks Jim & Bear
So, What I have is a Local Great Northern consist. That will work, I don’t have miles of track for a cross country consist anyway. [sigh]
Back in 1958 as an 18 year old Air Force tech I took a train from St. Louis to Chicago with a transfer to a train that went from Chicago to St. Paul, to Spokane, to Portland, and I think a buss To Se-Tac Airport for a flight to Alaska. I would like to think it was the Great Northern but for the life of me I can not remember enough details to be sure.
Bear thanks for the for the sites for the history of GN.
Top of the day to you Guys.
Lee
The Chicago-Portland rout could have been either the Great Northern or Northern Pacific. The CB&Q moved the train from Chicago to St Paul. The GN train went to Spokane, and a Portland section of the train was pulled by the SP&S to Portland. If you rode on the NP, the train went from St Paul to Pasco, and SP&S from Pasco to Portland. I suspect you rode on the GN. If you were using your ‘military’ discount, I suspect you rode on the Western Star train. I think employee/military/student discounts were not valid on the EB.
Jim
The Great Northern dieselized the EB with E-7 units in 1945, two years before the lightweight streamlined cars were delivered. It wasn’t until the E-units proved to have problems in the mountains that GN started using F-units.
When the Builder was streamlined in 1947 (and again with new equipment around 1951) the old equipment was bumped down to lesser trains. Some EB heavyweight cars ended up in the fifties on the Gopher / Badger between the Twin Cities and Duluth / Superior. This train would normally be 5-6 cars, and used F-units (often an A-B set). IIRC one of my GN books has a pic of the Gopher with an A-B set of F-3 or F-7s heading a Baggage Car, RPO, Coaches, and a Solarium observation car, all cars in Pullman green.
I’m not sure if that train had a dining car or not, but I don’t think it would look out of place to have one. When I rode the Badger in 1969 it used a cafe car, with a lunch counter running the long way thru part of the car - kind of like old passenger cars or streetcars that were converted into diners (not dining cars, but permanent buildings where people went to eat.)
Hey Stix
I changed trains in Chicago and IIRC rode straight through on the same train to Portland. There could have been a train change in St. Paul but I don’t think so. I believe the train pulled through a wash some place after St. Paul, and we had a crew change around Boise Idaho (or Bowman?), then down the Columbia river to Portland. I think the Columbia was on the right side of the train. We may have crossed the river also.
I had a seat near the front of the dome car and ate meals in the lower level of the dome car, at a table with white table cloth ETC (or the next car maybe). I remember thinking, “do I belong here” but I was in uniform no one said a thing.
Since it has been 54 years the memory’s are not that sharp.
I enjoy your information, thanks. [:)]
Lee
The River being on the right side of the train when traveling towards Portland combined with a dome-diner sure sounds like the City of Portland, a UP train. That train never went near St. Paul or Chicago.
On the other side of the River, you ate in a standard diner. And, of course, the River was on the left. But there were domes from both the GN and the NP on trains 1 and 2 on the SP&S. The GN cars started at Spokane. The NP cars were added to the train at Pasco. Either way, you stayed in your originating GN and NP cars as they were transferred to the SP&S train. My trips on these trains were about 7 years later.
Ed
You probably did change railroads in St.Paul, but didn’t know it. [;)]
The NP and GN each owned about 45% of the CB&Q, and their passenger trains used the Burlington between St.Paul and Chicago. Your train would have travelled on the Burlington (probably behind silver E-units) from Chicago to St.Paul Union Depot. The train would have gone thru the wye and backed into the depot, then the CB&Q engines would have been cut off and replaced with NP or GN engines.
I know NP had a stop east of the Rockies (somewhere in Montana I think) where they washed the cars, so that the windows would all be clean for the trip thru the Rockies. If you were on the NP and in a train with domes, you probably would have been on the “Four Domes West” North Coast Limited, as the Mainstreeter (AFAIK) didn’t carry domes.
BTW when the Empire Builder got streamlined cars in 1947, the heavyweight Builder cars were used to create a new train covering the same route at a different time. GN revived the name “Oriental Limited”, the train that the Empire Builder had replaced in 1929. The Oriental Limited ran as a heavyweight train until 1950 or 1951 when the EB got the new “Mid-Century Empire Builder” cars. The 1947 streamlined cars went to the Oriental Limited, which was renamed “Western Star”.
Anyway, I believe the 1947-50 Oriental Limited used “GREAT NORTHERN” lettering (the original Oriental Limited, like the Empire Builder, had carried the train name on the cars). So you might be able to add some sleepers to your existing cars and model a c.1950 Oriental Limited train, pulled by then brand-new F7s.
WJSTIX
I don’t remember where I got in the dome car, but that is the only place I remember being. I was on the right side close to the front and remember looking out across the top of a Pullman color roof, near the front of the train.
The Rockies and the Columbia river valley were quite a site for an 18 year old and I hardly ever left the dome car. Since then we have vacationed in the mountains pretty much from Canyon City Colorado to Fairbanks Alaska. Sure brings back memory’s. [:D]
I have enjoyed your comments. Thanks
Lee
Both GN and NP used dark green roofs, so could be either one. Only the engines would be changed at St.Paul, so you would have boarded a train of GN or NPcars in Chicago and stayed on it all the way to the Pacific coast. Unless you were a railfan, you probably wouldn’t have even known you’d changed railroads.